Twyla Tharp: World-renowned dancer and choreographer ranked among the top creative artists of all time, author of The Creative Habit. At 84 she still trains in the gym every morning at 5 a.m., and once deadlifted 227 pounds in her 60s.
What this episode covers
Andrew Huberman interviews 84-year-old choreographer Twyla Tharp about the mechanics of the creative process. They dig into her core concepts of the 'spine' (focus/central idea), ritual versus habit versus practice, failing privately, and 'scratching' for ideas. Tharp argues movement is the foundation of all human communication and that the body is smarter than the brain, drawing on her farm upbringing, boxing with Teddy Atlas, weight training, and decades of dance. The conversation ranges across classical ballet training, Baryshnikov, minimalism and Philip Glass, the economics of the arts, nonverbal/telepathic communication, aging gracefully while still pushing physical limits, and the role of critics and standards.
The guest's own work
The Creative Habit: Learn It and Use It for Life
Twyla Tharp
“I knew I wanted to host Twyla on this podcast after listening to her book, The Creative Habit, where she spells out how to build a schedule, habits, and routines”— Andrew Huberman
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
Basquiat
Julian Schnabel
“there's a wonderful scene in the movie Basquiat with him and Benicio del Toro... about this notion of fame”— Andrew Huberman
The Telepathy Tapes
Ky Dickens
“This last year the podcast series telepathy tapes was very very popular. I haven't had a chance to watch it in full.”— Andrew Huberman
Sex and the City
Darren Star
“Misha... is remembered by younger generations from his later cultural input, i.e. Sex in the City than he is as a classical ballet artist”— Twyla Tharp
Big reveals from this episode
- Tharp's hard rule: 'If you don't work when you don't want to work, you're not going to be able to work when you do want to work.'
- At 84 she now goes to see 'absolutely nothing'; an artist must deliberately stay isolated to work from a truthful place.
- Calls her recent very successful 60th-anniversary tour a burden: 'success is much harder to follow than failure.'
- Took up boxing in her early 40s with trainer Teddy Atlas to get into peak shape for an athletic dance piece.
- Reveals her personal-record deadlift was 227 pounds, more than twice her body weight.
- Says she eats a keto diet, cannot cook, and basically eats everything raw including meat.
- Tells aspiring dancers (and parents) not to do it: 'find something else if you possibly can.'
- Admits the internal standard her pianist mother instilled is 'unattainable and you're going to hate yourself a lot of the time.'
Worth remembering
- Tharp says even someone with only an hour and a half a day can build a real creative practice by showing up consistently (e.g. 6:45 a.m.).
- Huberman cites Nobel physiologist Sherrington: 'the final common path is movement', movement is what the nervous system is built for.
- The neurons controlling human trunk movement are molecularly identical to those driving undulation in fish; proximal-limb neurons match fish fin neurons.
- As a child Tharp was the family translator, understanding the private 'idioglossia' language her near-triplet siblings invented before speaking English.
- Growing up at her family's Foothill Drive-In Theater, she learned to read action and movement on screen with no sound.
- Amadeus was shot in a Prague opera house using the original under-stage mechanics, beeswax candles, and floor pollen that sparked when lit, recreating Mozart's era.
- Huberman notes published Science research shows humans can detect magnetic fields (magnetoreception) above chance.
- Tharp's mother changed the spelling of her name to 'Twyla' because she thought it would 'look better on a marquee,' chasing alliteration like Marilyn Monroe.
- She breaks down classical ballet barre work, plié, tendu, rond de jambe, frappé, grand battement, noting most of ballet derives from fencing.
- Distinguishes ritual (done to accomplish a goal), practice (get the job done, any way), and habit (dangerous, must be done the same way).