Dr. Matthew Johnson: Professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins who directs its Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research. One of the world's leading scientists studying how psilocybin, LSD, and related compounds can treat mental disorders.
What this episode covers
Andrew Huberman interviews Dr. Matthew Johnson about the science of psychedelics for treating mental illness. They define what qualifies as a psychedelic across serotonergic, NMDA-antagonist, and entactogen classes, then walk step-by-step through a Johns Hopkins psilocybin therapy session from screening to integration. Johnson argues the common therapeutic mechanism is a persisting change in self-representation, explains the difference between micro- and macrodosing (and his skepticism of microdosing claims), and details the real dangers including bad trips and destabilizing people with psychotic or bipolar predisposition. The conversation closes on the legal landscape, FDA breakthrough-therapy status for MDMA and psilocybin, exploratory work on traumatic brain injury with the UFC, and how philanthropy has funded the research.
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Also referenced (named, not recommended)
How to Change Your Mind
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“articles in "The New York Times" and Michael Pollan's book, "How to Change Your Mind," and in a feature in "60 Minutes"”— Andrew Huberman
60 Minutes
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“and in a feature in "60 Minutes" about psychedelics and the new emerging science of psychedelic therapies for treating mental disorders.”— Andrew Huberman
Spravato (esketamine)
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“Spravato, the intra-nasal form marketed by Janssen, which is esketamine... It's been FDA-approved for treatment resistant depression.”— guest
Psychedelics and Philosophy
Chris Letheby
“Chris Letheby, a philosopher in Australia, who has a forthcoming book... "Psychedelics and Philosophy".”— guest
The Doors of Perception
Aldous Huxley
“it sounds similar to Aldous Huxley's classic description and the doors of perception of the chair and the drapes.”— guest
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
Ken Kesey
“I'm not far from the Midland Park VA, where "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's" is basically, based on, right?”— Andrew Huberman
Adderall
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“So just like Adderall is in that phenethylamine class.”— guest
Prozac
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Big reveals from this episode
- Johnson's lab now drops body-weight dose adjustment for psilocybin, having found across hundreds of volunteers that brain effects don't scale with body weight.
- Hallucinogen-persisting perceptual disorder has NEVER been observed in thousands of supervised study participants, only in illicit use, suggesting other factors are at play.
- Johnson claims the 'bad trip' may be the necessary gateway to transcendental mystical experiences linked to long-term positive outcomes.
- Even after the best preparation, about a third of people on ~30mg psilocybin report a bad trip at some point in the session.
- No credible peer-reviewed study has shown microdosing improves mood, creativity, or cognition; some show mild impairment of time perception.
- Johnson warns chronic microdosing could carry serotonin-2B heart-valve risks (the mechanism behind fen-phen) that single therapeutic doses don't.
- A $17 million gift, split between the Cohen Foundation and a Tim Ferriss-led collaborative, funded the Hopkins center.
- Both psilocybin (two designations) and MDMA (for PTSD) hold FDA breakthrough-therapy status, with MDMA likely approved within a few years.
Worth remembering
- Psilocybin occurs in over 200 known species of mushrooms, and DMT is found in dozens of plants.
- All classic psychedelics act as agonists or partial agonists at the serotonin 2A receptor despite differing chemical structures.
- Ketamine and classic psychedelics may share effects via downstream increases in glutamate transmission.
- Psilocybin's molecular structure looks similar to serotonin, while mescaline looks more like dopamine.
- Aldous Huxley took 500mg of mescaline, a heroic dose, for his Doors of Perception experience.
- The 'bath salts' face-eating case in Florida actually showed only cannabis in the attacker's system, an example of drug-class scapegoating.
- Johnson compares psychedelics to bodybuilding and contortionism: extreme subcultures whose practices (weight training, yoga) eventually mainstream.
- Alia Crum's research shows belief alone changes insulin response to identical milkshakes and weight loss from identical exercise.
- Rodent work from labs like David Olson and Brian Roth shows psychedelics trigger dendrite growth and new neural connections.
- People seeking trials should go to Hopkinspsychedelic.org or search Clinicaltrials.gov, not email researchers directly.