Chris Voss: Former lead FBI international hostage and crisis negotiator and author of the bestseller 'Never Split the Difference.' He now runs The Black Swan Group, teaching negotiation built on 'tactical empathy.'
What this episode covers
Lex Fridman talks with Chris Voss about the craft of negotiation, from kidnapping-for-ransom cases and Al-Qaeda hostage situations to everyday deals and conversations. Voss argues that decisions are driven by emotion and what people care about, not pure reason, and that 'tactical empathy' (understanding and articulating the other side's position without agreeing) is the most powerful tool available. They cover concrete techniques such as mirroring, labeling, calibrated 'what/how' questions, the three negotiator types, the power of silence, and the abuse of the word 'fair.' The conversation widens into world leaders and geopolitics (Putin, Zelensky, North Korea, the Middle East), Donald Trump as marketer versus negotiator, whether AI chatbots could out-negotiate humans, and ends on suicide-hotline work, religion, and the meaning of life.
Recommended on this episode
Beyond Winning: Negotiating to Create Value in Deals and Disputes
Robert Mnookin
“Bob manukan wrote a book Beyond winning second chapters the tension between empathy and assertiveness still the best chapter on empathy I've ever read anywhere”— Chris Voss
The guest's own work
Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It
Chris Voss
“former FBI hostage and crisis negotiator and author of never split the difference negotiating as if your life depended on it”— Lex Fridman
Tactical Empathy
Chris Voss
“a documentary uh that about me and my company that hasn't been released yet but it should be released sometime this year what's the name of the documentary tactical empathy”— Chris Voss
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
The Human Factor
Dror Moreh
“the documentary the human factor about the Mideast peace negotiations mostly through the 90s mostly under the Clinton administration”— Chris Voss
Back to School
Alan Metter
“he did a movie a long time ago called back to school he went back to school he's an old guy back to school”— Chris Voss
Man Without a Gun
Giandomenico Picco
“John Dominico Pico is the UN hostage negotiators... he wrote a book called Man Without a Gun”— Chris Voss
The Talent Code
Daniel Coyle
“what was it Cole's book the culture the Talent Code says that you know people just noticed it and started getting good at it”— Chris Voss
Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself
Joe Dispenza
“one of Joseph spends his book is breaking the habit of being yourself”— Chris Voss
Big reveals from this episode
- Voss says 'we don't negotiate with terrorists' has not actually been US policy since Bush signed a directive in 2002.
- Calls Donald Trump a 'great marketer' but not a good negotiator, citing the North Korea talks that fizzled with no deal.
- Recounts running Clubhouse rooms during the Israel-Gaza conflict where one rule, restate the other side first, produced zero arguments.
- Shares that a participant's heart rate jumped to 170 just from being hit with the 'assertive voice' in a training exercise.
- A company told him their negotiation chatbots beat the 'rational Harvard method' roughly 80% of the time, mainly because bots are never in a bad mood.
- Admits the FBI's mission and its rules conflicted, so he chose to pursue the mission to 'protect the American people' over following every rule.
- Describes himself as a 'Bono Christian' and says he believes his life is a gift with a purpose.
Worth remembering
- In kidnapping cases the question 'when will this be over?' is answered by the feelings of the kidnappers, not logic.
- Empathy as Voss defines it means understanding and articulating the other side's view without agreeing, liking, or sympathizing.
- He claims the brain is roughly 75% negative and the fastest way to deactivate negativity is to name it out loud.
- Hearing 'that's right' (not 'you're right') signals a bonding moment of true understanding, driven by oxytocin and serotonin.
- Hostage negotiators succeed about 93% of the time across the board.
- Mirroring means repeating one to three of the other person's words, and people who love it tend to be high IQ and high EQ.
- 'Fair' is the F-bomb of negotiation, usually deployed as a weapon when someone has no legitimate criteria to back their position.
- The 7-38-55 rule (words/tone/body language) originally came from UCLA's Albert Mehrabian and was about 'liking,' not the whole message.
- Voss argues conflict can be a feature not a bug, comparing his productive arguments with a colleague to the Beatles and U2 creating great work while fighting.