William Ury: Co-author of 'Getting to Yes' and 'Getting Past No,' co-founder of Harvard's Program on Negotiation, and a 45-year international mediator in conflicts from Camp David to Venezuela; author of the new book 'Possible.'
What this episode covers
William Ury traces his path from a 22-year-old anthropology student to one of the world's leading negotiation experts, beginning with a life-changing phone call from Harvard's Roger Fisher. He unpacks the core frameworks behind 'Getting to Yes' and his new book 'Possible', looking behind positions for underlying interests, writing the other side's victory speech, going to the balcony to control reactivity, building a golden bridge, and mobilizing the third side. Through vivid stories, Camp David's one-text process, tracking down Dennis Rodman to decode Kim Jong-un, absorbing a 30-minute tirade from Hugo Chavez, and settling a Brazilian billionaire's two-and-a-half-year corporate war in days, he shows how seemingly intractable disputes can be transformed. He also covers the strategic uses of silence, respect as the cheapest concession, BATNA, trust menus, the positive no, and creativity. Ury closes on his personal practices, especially daily walking, which he credits for fitness, calm, and ideation.
The guest's own work
Getting Past No
William Ury
“I've read more than one of your books and in fact used getting past no specifically to help build my first company”— Tim Ferriss
Getting to Yes
Roger Fisher and William Ury
“batna is an acronym that Roger Fisher and I coined back in getting to yes for your best alternative to a negotiated agreement”— William Ury
International Mediators: A Working Guide
Roger Fisher and William Ury
“I showed him this little booklet that Roger fiser and I had worked on hard which was called International mediators a working guide”— William Ury
Possible: How We Survive (and Thrive) in an Age of Conflict
William Ury
“people can find the book wherever they find their books possible how we survive and thrive in an age of conflict”— Tim Ferriss
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
Secrets of Power Negotiating
Roger Dawson
“I listened to this book it's an audio book it was mostly real estate focused it was called secrets of power negotiating I think it was Roger Dawson”— Tim Ferriss
The Origin of Species
Charles Darwin
“the exact sentence you know on page 300 and so of the Origin of Species where he sums up the entire theory of evolution”— William Ury
The Art of War
Sun Tzu
“it's a phrase that comes from sunu the Art of War which is leave them a way out”— William Ury
Long Walk to Freedom
Nelson Mandela
“he learned to meditate he learned to observe himself he writes about it in his in his autobiography”— William Ury
Big reveals from this episode
- To prepare for the 2017-18 nuclear standoff, Ury tracked down retired NBA player Dennis Rodman over pizza to learn what made Kim Jong-un tick and write his victory speech.
- At Camp David in 1978, the U.S. used a 'one-text process,' producing 23 drafts over 13 days where each side only criticized rather than conceded, leading to a peace treaty that has lasted 45 years.
- The 'victory speech' exercise: write out the other side's three talking points for justifying a yes to the people they care about, then help them deliver it.
- Facing a 30-minute public tirade from Hugo Chavez, Ury pinched his palm to stay alert, refused to react, and after roughly 30 minutes Chavez asked 'what should I do?', 'the faint sound of a human mind opening.'
- Ury settled a Brazilian retailer's two-and-a-half-year, lawsuit-ridden control battle in days by uncovering the chairman's deepest interest, 'liberdade,' freedom, and reframing the deal so neither party could be seen to lose.
- The 'positive no' is a yes-no-yes sandwich: a yes to your deeper interest, a calm no, then a yes that affirms the relationship without backing away.
- The new book 'Possible' distills Ury's life's work into three steps born from a hiking question by Jim Collins: go to the balcony, build a golden bridge, take the third side.
- In a 25-year Indonesian separatist conflict, getting the guerrilla leaders to articulate their interests behind 'independence' led to an autonomy agreement granting natural-resource control, language schooling, and an elected governor from their own movement.
Worth remembering
- Ury connected with Roger Fisher at 22 after a cold January 1977 phone call; Fisher had sent Ury's student paper to the Assistant Secretary of State for the Middle East.
- After the Singapore summit, the perceived risk of nuclear war with North Korea dropped from roughly 50% to 1%, even without a signed agreement.
- MIT researcher Jared Curhan's studies found a correlation between the amount of silence and pauses in a negotiation and more mutually cooperative outcomes.
- The word 'respect' comes from the Latin 'respectere,' meaning 'to see again', the basis for why respect is the cheapest concession.
- Warren Buffett closed a $500 million ABC deal with Tom Murphy in about 30 seconds by phone, operating at the 'speed of trust.'
- In Venezuela, Ury shuttled all night between a minister on his B&B balcony and opposition figures in the garden to construct a 'trust menu' of pre-arranged reciprocal signals.
- Ury notes Pythagoras called 'yes' and 'no' the simplest yet most complicated words, deserving the most study.
- At 70, Ury walks one and a half to three hours daily, ideates his books while walking, and now records ideas rather than using Post-its.
- Ury founded the Abraham Path, a long-distance walking trail through the Middle East with about 1,500 miles of trails, conceived as a 'hundred-year project.'
- The 'Getting to Yes' orange parable: two sisters split an orange in half when one needed only the peel for baking and the other only the fruit, missing the interests behind their positions.