Hugh Jackman and Esther Perel — The Tim Ferriss Show

This is a 'super combo' episode celebrating the Tim Ferriss Show's 10th anniversary and 1 billion downloads, pairing actor Hugh Jackman with relationship therapist Esther Perel. Jackman discusses Transcendental Meditation, the energy practices behind his stage performances, lessons from his father about ethics and faith, learning to follow his gut in his career, and his go-to fitness routine. Perel recounts growing up among Holocaust survivors in Antwerp and how that shaped her concept of the erotic as 'an antidote to death,' then dives deep into desire, monogamy, infidelity, honesty, and power dynamics in relationships. Both guests also share book recommendations, mentorship philosophies, and parting wisdom about doing things for others.

• Jackman ripped up his $35,000 acting-school acceptance letter thinking he couldn't afford it, then received a check for the exact $35,000 amount the next day from his late grandmother's will, which he took as a sign to pursue acting.
  00:38:36
• After being labeled a 'singer' from Beauty and the Beast, Jackman couldn't get a film audition for years due to Australian snobbery toward musical theater, prompting him to deliberately exit musicals to establish himself as an actor.
  00:31:19
• Jackman turned down The Boy From Oz against his gut to stay out of musicals, and was 'sick to my stomach' watching it later, after which he vowed to always follow his gut on decisions.
  00:33:22
• Perel reveals both her parents were the sole survivors of their entire families (roughly 200 relatives lost on each side); her mother was in camps from 18-22 and her father from 25-31, across nine and 14 camps respectively.
  00:47:57
• Perel argues that for most of history monogamy had nothing to do with love but was an economic imposition on women tied to paternity and lineage, and that the modern term should be loosened and redefined.
  01:32:42
• Perel discloses she is a 34-year couples therapist who works in seven languages and received around 1,500 letters after a TED talk, describing herself as a 'walking confessional.'
  02:05:46
• Perel cites the striking data point that second marriages have a 65% divorce rate, higher than first marriages, suggesting the relationship structure itself should be questioned, not just partner choice.
  02:13:35
• Perel contends the partner who voices fear of abandonment in an open relationship is often experiencing a lesser fear than the one wanting other partners, who may be addressing an even bigger hidden fear of abandonment.
  01:46:38

• Jackman describes the meditation 'monkey mind' technique of sending the restless mind up and down a telegraph pole so the mantra fades away.
  00:11:24
• Jackman has meditated twice daily since age 23, but a few years ago let go of the 'duty' element and now meditates when he genuinely wants to.
  00:12:55
• Jackman's favorite movie quote is Eric Liddell's 'I feel His pleasure when I run' from Chariots of Fire, which he uses to describe being on stage.
  00:15:05
• Jackman's top fitness recommendation is the rowing machine, specifically a 7-minute row targeting 2,000 meters, four times a week, plus push-ups and chest work.
  00:40:42
• Jackman worked at a gym for three years and used the ice baths from Tim Ferriss's The 4-Hour Body to get lean for the later Wolverine films.
  00:40:42
• Perel got her mentor Salvador Minuchin by knocking on his door, being allowed to observe for 10 weeks, then refusing to leave until she became 'a fly on the wall' and worked with him four years.
  01:13:01
• Perel defines the erotic as 'sexuality transformed by human imagination', the poetics of sex, turning it into a place you go rather than an act you do.
  01:22:52
• Perel defines gaslighting as making a partner doubt their own perception of reality by turning accusations around, calling it cruel mental torture.
  02:04:43
• Perel notes Europeans marry much less than Americans, and that the modern nuclear family of two adults alone in cities with children is 'a terrible model for couples.'
  02:10:27
• Perel observes that if people brought just 1% of the creativity they invest in their affairs into their relationships, the results would be astounding.
  02:15:38