John Mearsheimer: Political scientist at the University of Chicago and a founder of the 'offensive realism' school of international relations. Author of 'The Tragedy of Great Power Politics' and co-author (with Stephen Walt) of the controversial 'The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy.'
What this episode covers
Mearsheimer lays out his theory of offensive realism, in which states in an anarchic international system are driven by survival to maximize relative power, with population and wealth as the core building blocks. He applies this framework to history (Nazi Germany, the Soviet front in WWII) and to today's flashpoints, arguing that NATO expansion is the principal cause of the Russia-Ukraine war and that the West, not Putin, bears primary responsibility. The conversation turns to Israel-Palestine, where he frames October 7th and Israel's response through the lens of occupation, defends a two-state solution he believes is now nearly impossible, and revisits his Israel Lobby thesis. He and Lex Fridman also explore nuclear escalation dynamics, the rising US-China rivalry over Taiwan, the collapse of empires, and the role of immigration in sustaining American power. Throughout, Mearsheimer stresses empathy and seeing the world through adversaries' eyes as essential to good strategy.
The guest's own work
The Tragedy of Great Power Politics
John Mearsheimer
“can you explain your view on power in international Politics as outlined in your book The Tragedy of great power politics”— Lex Fridman
The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy
John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt
“you mentioned the Israel Lobby you wrote a book probably your most controversial book on the topic”— Lex Fridman
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
Leviathan
Thomas Hobbes
“it's what he calls the Leviathan and that of course is the title of his famous book”— John Mearsheimer
The End of History and the Last Man
Francis Fukuyama
“this basic argument is inherent in Francis fukiyama the end of History he argues that democracy Triumph”— John Mearsheimer
The Jewish State
Theodor Herzl
“think of Theodore herzl's famous book it's called the Jewish State nation state think of the word nation state”— John Mearsheimer
Who Are We? The Challenges to America's National Identity
Samuel Huntington
“Sam Huntington's book who are we which in many ways I love that book but it has one fundamental flaw”— John Mearsheimer
How the Irish Became White
Noel Ignatiev
“there's a book a very famous book that's been written called when the Irish became White just think about the title”— John Mearsheimer
Big reveals from this episode
- Argues there is zero evidence Putin intended to conquer all of Ukraine, noting 190,000 troops could never occupy it.
- Claims NATO expansion was the principal cause of the war and that 'the West is principally responsible for this bloodbath,' not Putin.
- Asserts the US and Britain told Zelensky to walk away from a promising March 2022 peace deal brokered via Bennett and Turkey.
- States Israel killed more civilians in Gaza in one month than Russia killed in 18 months in Ukraine, disputing claims Putin targets civilians.
- Lays out how a losing Russia could use one or a few nuclear weapons in a remote area as a 'manipulation of risk' strategy to spook everyone.
- Rejects the cynical view that leaders need conflict, but says Israel deliberately punishes Gaza civilians via the 'Iron Wall' to force submission.
- Calls the anti-Semitism charge against Israel critics 'the Great Silencer' designed to shut down open discourse.
- Warns the real danger with China is not just US liberalism but a 'rollback' policy aimed at wrecking China, as the US secretly did to the USSR.
Worth remembering
- The Chinese 'century of national humiliation' ran from the late 1840s to late 1940s, when great powers preyed on a weak China.
- By December 1941 the Germans had murdered roughly 2 million Soviet POWs, more than the number of Jews killed at that point; the total reached 3.7 million.
- George Kennan, William Perry, and Paul Nitze all warned in the 1990s that NATO expansion would produce disaster.
- Angela Merkel said she opposed NATO membership for Ukraine because she knew Putin would see it as a declaration of war.
- In 1993 Mearsheimer argued in Foreign Affairs that Ukraine should keep its nuclear weapons to deter a future Russian invasion.
- Bill Clinton has publicly admitted on video that forcing Ukraine to give up its nuclear weapons was a mistake.
- Both Henry Kissinger and Robert McNamara said after leaving office they would never have initiated nuclear use in Europe, preferring 'red than dead.'
- An Israeli think tank found pro-Palestinian protests worldwide rose from 69% in the first six days after October 7th to about 95% afterward.
- In 1922 the British Empire controlled an astonishing share of the world map, likely the largest empire by area in human history.
- Mearsheimer notes Gen Z is the last majority-white American generation, and argues immigration and intermarriage are vital sources of US strength.