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Lex Fridman · 2020-08-20

Sheldon Solomon: Death and Meaning | Lex Fridman Podcast #117

Social psychologist Sheldon Solomon argues the fear of death secretly drives nearly everything humans build, believe, and destroy.

Sheldon Solomon: Death and Meaning | Lex Fridman Podcast #117
The guest

Sheldon Solomon: Social psychologist at Skidmore College and co-developer of Terror Management Theory. He co-authored 'The Worm at the Core' and built decades of experiments on how mortality awareness shapes human behavior, extending the ideas of Ernest Becker.

What this episode covers

Sheldon Solomon explains Terror Management Theory: humans alone know they will die, and most of culture, self-esteem, religion, and politics exists to manage that terror. He traces the idea from Ernest Becker, Kierkegaard, and Heidegger, and recounts experiments showing that subtle death reminders shift how people vote, consume, and treat outsiders. The conversation ranges across Locke and Marx on economics and inequality, the rise of charismatic demagogues amid economic pain, consciousness, and whether an artificial intelligence would need mortality to become truly human. Solomon and Lex close on love, faith as a leap, the loneliness of consciousness, and the value of confronting death to live fully.

Recommended on this episode

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The Denial of Death

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“had a big impact on my thinking”
“ernest becker's book denial of death had a big impact on my thinking about human cognition consciousness and the deep ocean currents of our mind”— host
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Winesburg, Ohio

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“the sherwood anderson guy he's a novelist that i like about uh he wrote a book called winesburg ohio”— guest
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Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind

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“i think that's a fine book”
“i'm with uh a harare with the sapiens that we're kind of we seem to construct ideas on top of each other and that's a fundamentally a social process absolutely i think that's a fine book”— guest
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The Plague

Albert Camus

“i find the plague is a brilliant”
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Clock Without Hands

Carson McCullers

“i'm enamored with a novel ... i find it a brilliant literary depiction”
“i i'm enamored with a novel by a woman named carson mccullers written in 1953 called clock without hands and i find it a brilliant literary depiction”— guest
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“is a fine book”
“i like faulkner absalom absalom is is a fine book”— guest
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The guest's own work

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Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death in Life

Sheldon Solomon, Jeff Greenberg, Tom Pyszczynski

“you've written the book warm with the core that death is at the core of our consciousness of everything of how we see the world”— guest

Also referenced (named, not recommended)

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Dreamthorp

Alexander Smith

“it was alexander smith in in a book called dreamthwarp i think it's written in the 1860s he just says right in the middle of an essay it is our knowledge that we have to die”— guest
BookReferencedISBN verified

Homo Aestheticus

Ellen Dissanayake

“another woman ellen dizzinayake wrote a book called homo aestheticus and following aristotle and his poetics she's like well we're not only rational animals”— guest
BookReferencedISBN verified

Escape from Evil

Ernest Becker

“he had one more after he died called escape from evil and evidently it was supposed to originally the denial of death was supposed to be this giant thousand page book”— guest
BookReferencedISBN verified

The Birth and Death of Meaning

Ernest Becker

“there's another book the birth and death of meaning uh which is framed um in from an evolutionary perspective”— guest
BookReferencedISBN verified

Maps of Meaning

Jordan Peterson

“jordan was working on his maps of meaning and we were publishing our work and i i think jordan at the time um was concerned about our vague claims”— guest
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The Blank Slate

Steven Pinker

“jordan didn't mind me uh knocking liberal political philosophy on those grounds that would basically be like stephen pinker's blank slate”— guest
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Second Treatise of Government

John Locke

“he starts in his second treatise on government 1690 or so he he just he says okay let's start with a state of nature”— guest
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Moby-Dick

Herman Melville

“melville does the same thing in moby dick where he he thinks about will there ever come a time where we run out of whales”— guest
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Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844

Karl Marx

“we need to start with marx's economic and philosophical manuscripts of 1844 before marx became more of a polemicist”— guest
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Capital in the Twenty-First Century

Thomas Piketty

“the thomas pickerty guy who writes about capital and just makes the point that return on investment will always be greater than wages”— guest
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Collapse

Jared Diamond

“i'm with jared diamond you know in the book collapse where he points out studying um the collapse of major civilizations that it often happens right after things appear to never have been better”— guest
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The Origins of Totalitarianism

Hannah Arendt

“hannah arendt in the 1950s said the same thing in her book about totalitarianism when she said that you know that economics has reached the point”— guest
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The Selfish Gene

Richard Dawkins

“i'm going here from richard dawkins uh the selfish gene you know to i love the early dawkins”— guest
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Being and Time

Martin Heidegger

“a year or two ago i i started reading uh martin heidegger i'm reading being in time and what i now wonder is why um why becker who refers to heidegger”— guest
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The Tibetan Book of the Dead

“you got the the stoics and you got the epicureans and then you got the tibetan book of the dead and then you got like the medieval monks”— guest
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Darwin's Cathedral

David Sloan Wilson

“it's david sloane wilson wrote a book called darwin's cathedral and he said religion has nothing to do with death it's a it evolved to make groups viable”— guest
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In the Name of Identity: Violence and the Need to Belong

Amin Maalouf

“amin malouf a lebanese guy who writes in french who in the 1990s i think wrote a book called in the name of identity violence and the need to belong”— guest
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Escape from Freedom

Erich Fromm

“it's eric fromm uh in a book called escape from freedom he's like look you you're smart enough to know that the most direct way that we typically communicate”— guest
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How the Mind Works

Steven Pinker

“stephen pinker i do agree with his claim and i think how the mind works that it is the key question for the psychological sciences”— guest
BookReferenced

The Decline of the West

Oswald Spengler

“another lunatic oswald spangler who wrote a book called decline of the west and he says that the philosopher the german philosopher guerta”— guest
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Ulysses

James Joyce

“it took me 40 years to read ulysses i could not get past the first five pages and it took me 40 years to read being in time it's a slog”— guest
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Charter Schools and Their Enemies

Thomas Sowell

“there's a thomas soul uh wrote a book about uh recent book on um charter schools yeah i would like to talk to him”— host
ProductReferenced

Roomba

iRobot

“i have a bunch of roombas here i can show it to you after uh that i have roombas as a robot that has um vacuums the floor and i've had them um make different sounds”— host

Big reveals from this episode

  • Solomon traces his life's work to an existential crisis at age eight, triggered by his grandmother's death and staring at a stamp collection of dead presidents.
  • After 9/11 functioned as a giant death reminder, George W. Bush went from the lowest to highest presidential approval rating, illustrating Terror Management Theory.
  • In experiments, Americans preferred John Kerry over Bush in control conditions, but when first reminded of death they liked Bush far more.
  • Solomon admits his decades of death research may itself be a way of avoiding directly confronting his own death anxiety by turning it into an intellectual exercise.
  • A publisher offered to buy 'The Worm at the Core' only if Solomon could write it without mentioning death because 'people don't like death.'
  • Solomon reveals he's consulting on a screenplay about an embodied female AI who discovers her creator made her mortal, mirroring Lex's own questions.
  • His Skidmore tenure negotiation was simply: show up for classes and 'don't molest barnyard animals'; his foundational paper took eight years and was rejected at every journal.
  • Solomon previews an unwritten book arguing both liberal and conservative political philosophy are 'intellectually and morally bankrupt' because both rest on false assumptions about human nature.

Worth remembering

  • The phrase 'worm at the core' comes from William James describing death as the worm at the core of the human condition.
  • Ernest Becker was posthumously awarded the Pulitzer Prize for 'The Denial of Death' weeks after dying in 1974.
  • The Greek word 'psyche' originally meant 'soul,' and Aristotle, who coined it, was a monist who tied soul inseparably to the body.
  • Yale studies show 14-month-old babies will reciprocate kindness and refuse to help those who behaved unfairly, responding to intention.
  • Some Solomon experiments flash the word 'death' for just 28 milliseconds, too fast to consciously see, yet it changes later behavior.
  • Subtle death reminders make people drink more water, eat more cookies, want fancier clothes, and sit closer to people who look like them.
  • Studies suggest a half-second delay between when something happens and our conscious awareness of it, raising questions about free will.
  • Nietzsche claimed a solitary creature would not need consciousness, and called consciousness 'the most calamitous stupidity by which we shall someday perish.'
  • Locke argued money is 'funky' because it has no intrinsic value and, unlike food, doesn't spoil, justifying unlimited accumulation.
  • Real-world sex robots are mostly used as companions by lonely people rather than for sex, Lex notes.