Greg Lukianoff: First Amendment attorney and president/CEO of FIRE (Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression). Author of Unleashing Liberty and co-author of The Coddling of the American Mind and The Canceling of the American Mind.
What this episode covers
Lukianoff defines cancel culture as the post-2014 uptick in successful campaigns to fire, expel, or de-platform people for normally protected speech, plus the climate of fear it creates. He traces the connection between free speech and the pursuit of knowledge, walks through FIRE's college free speech rankings, and dissects the 'rhetorical fortresses' the left and right each use to dodge arguments. The conversation covers DEI statements as ideological litmus tests, hate speech doctrine, the printing press as a historical parallel to social media's disruption, and how to interview extremists responsibly. Lukianoff also shares his personal history with depression, a 2007 suicide attempt, and how cognitive behavioral therapy reshaped his thinking and seeded The Coddling of the American Mind.
Recommended on this episode
The Origins of Political Order
Francis Fukuyama
“Francis fukiyamas um the book that I'm reading right now origins of the political order actually does this wonderful job”— Greg Lukianoff
Poison Ivy: How Elite Colleges Divide Us
Evan Mandery
“there's a great book called Poison Ivy um by Evan mandry which I recommend to everybody it's outrageous”— Greg Lukianoff
The guest's own work
The Canceling of the American Mind
Greg Lukianoff and Rikki Schlott
“co-author with Ricky schlot of a new book coming out in October that you should definitely pre-order now called the canceling of the American mind”— Greg Lukianoff
The Coddling of the American Mind
Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt
“co-author with Jonathan height of coddling of the American mind”— Greg Lukianoff
Unleashing Liberty
Greg Lukianoff
“he's the author of unleashing Liberty co-author with Jonathan height of coddling of the American mind”— Lex Fridman
Freedom from Speech
Greg Lukianoff
“I wrote a book called freedom from speech in 2014.”— Greg Lukianoff
Can We Take a Joke?
Greg Lukianoff / FIRE
“there was this amazing case this was at University of Washington um and we actually featured this in a documentary he made in 2015 20 that came out in 2015 2016. called can we take a joke”— Greg Lukianoff
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
So You've Been Publicly Shamed
Jon Ronson
“John Ronson wrote a book called so you've been publicly shamed they came out in 2015 already documenting this phenomena”— Greg Lukianoff
Racial Paranoia
John L. Jackson Jr.
“there was a book called racial paranoia um that came out in about 15 years ago that was making the point”— Greg Lukianoff
Why Buddhism Is True
Robert Wright
“Robert Wright he wrote a book on on Buddhism um and I talked about trying to use social media from a from a Buddhist perspective”— Greg Lukianoff
Big reveals from this episode
- Harvard scored a negative 10.69 (rounded to zero), the only school to receive an 'abysmal' rating in FIRE's free speech rankings.
- About 190 professors have been fired over roughly nine years of cancel culture versus around 100 during the entire 11-year Red Scare.
- Around 90% of professors report self-censoring today, compared to 9% during the Red Scare.
- Lukianoff reveals he attempted suicide in 2007, calling 911 after buying hardware to ensure it would work.
- A friend who had been canceled shot himself a week after Lukianoff last spoke with him.
- FIRE obtained documentation of administrators buying tickets for angry students and training them to shout down a campus play.
- Lukianoff argues the very founders of critical race theory invented 'hate speech' as a category to get banned.
Worth remembering
- Michigan Technological University ranked #1 for free speech; the bottom five included Penn, Georgetown, Fordham, USC and Harvard.
- At Stanford, a fifth of the law school class showed up to shout down a Fifth Circuit judge, with a DEI administrator joining in.
- Lukianoff, an atheist with deep interest in religion, read the entire Bible and the Quran in one year and plans to tackle the Book of Mormon.
- Daryl Davis, a Black man, de-radicalized multiple KKK members simply by befriending them.
- Letting Nazis march in Skokie made them look like fools and dissolved the movement, illustrating speech as its own antidote.
- Prior restraint dates to Henry VIII, who in the 1530s required printers to be Crown-approved to suppress heretical work.
- Lukianoff was nearly in fist fights with people on the right for defending those who joked about 9/11.
- Every prominent Black conservative FIRE interviewed had been told they were 'not really black' for holding a dissenting opinion.