The guest
Grimes: Canadian artist, musician, songwriter, producer and director (real name Claire Boucher, also goes by 'c'). Known for genre-blending experimental pop and for thinking deeply about technology, AI and the future of human civilization.
What this episode covers
Grimes joins Lex Fridman for a sprawling late-night conversation that ranges from the craft of music production to the future of humanity. She argues that humans have already evolved into a new species she calls 'homo techno,' fundamentally rewired by computers, and that we now stand at a turning point where we can choose our own intelligent design. The pair discuss a protopian (rather than utopian) vision of the future inspired by Iain Banks' Culture novels, the role of love as an evolutionary mechanism, and how motherhood reoriented her toward optimism. Darker threads include the violence of emerging consciousness, supply-chain collapse as the real civilizational risk, and the distorting effect of social-media fame on her public 'avatar.' It closes on the idea that consciousness may be the universe waking up to see itself for the first time.
Recommended on this episode
ProductRecommended
Shure SM7B microphone
Shure
“it's a incredible microphone yes it's very flattering on vocals i've used this a lot”
“this microphone cloud lifter is what michael jackson used so no really yeah this is like thriller and stuff this mic”— Grimes
BookRecommendedISBN verified
Surface Detail
Iain M. Banks
“my favorite depiction; you have to read this book; it's literally the greatest science fiction book possibly”
“have you read surface detail by ian banks surface detail is my favorite depiction of a su oh wow you have to read this book”— Grimes
MediaRecommended
Elden Ring
FromSoftware
“it looks way too fun; it's so fun it's so good it's so nice”
“we do have virtual worlds like video games elden ring have you played all right you haven't been really afraid of playing that game literally it looks way too fun”— Grimes
BookRecommendedISBN verified
I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream
Harlan Ellison
“you should read that”
“have you read the sci-fi short story i have no mouth but i'm a scream good title no oh man i mean you should read that”— Grimes
MediaRecommended
My Neighbor Totoro
Studio Ghibli
“it's just like a fantastic film; it's like great art and it's so imaginative and it's so beautiful”
“we recently watched uh totoro with him studio ghibli yeah um and it's just like a fantastic film”— Grimes
MediaRecommended
Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi
Rian Johnson
“i think it's the best uh star wars film”
“star wars episode eight um i know a lot of people have issues with it personally for on the record i think it's the best uh star wars film”— Grimes
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
ProductReferenced
Cloudlifter
Cloud Microphones
“oh yeah the cloud lifter there you go there you go you know your stuff have you ever used the cloud lifter”— Lex Fridman
BookReferenced
The Player of Games
Iain M. Banks
“what have you read uh just the player of games i i read that um titles can't be copyrighted so you can just steal them”— Lex Fridman
MediaReferenced
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Bethesda
“wandering places like elder scrolls like skyrim just exploring uh these landscapes in another world and then you get experience points”— Lex Fridman
MediaReferenced
Fortnite
Epic Games
“instead of like having you know blowing each other up with nukes they're having like a giant fortnight battle yes uh to just to decide this”— Grimes
MediaReferenced
Hardcore History
Dan Carlin
“dan carlin actually has this um um episode of hardcore history uh on painfultainment oh that episode is fucked it's dark”— Grimes
MediaReferenced
Battle Angel: Alita
Robert Rodriguez
“when i watched um battle angel elita and they were like the martian technocracy and i was like yeah martian technocracy”— Grimes
ProductReferenced
Ableton Live
Ableton
“i do want to ask you about ableton live i'll tell you about ableton because ableton is sick no one asks no one ever asks about ableton”— Lex Fridman
BookReferencedISBN verified
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
William L. Shirer
“going to bed reading like part four of the rise and fall of the third reich or whatever like i got like dense ass history”— Grimes
BookReferencedISBN verified
Novacene
James Lovelock
“c have you did you read uh nova scene yet by james lovelock you're doing a lot of really good book recommendations here”— Grimes
Big reveals from this episode
- Grimes claims humans have evolved into a new species, 'homo techno,' and that an MRI of her brain would look very different from a medieval one.
- She argues motherhood should count as 'profit' under a reformed 'social capitalism,' floating a 'motherhood DAO' to fund single mothers.
- She admits raising her children is causing 'crisis thoughts' and pulling her away from making art.
- Grimes suggests the emergence of consciousness in babies may be psychologically violent and that we all carry hidden trauma from it.
- On Elon and Twitter she deliberately withholds her opinions, saying she's too close to the situation and fears saying something that could 'dismantle democracy.'
- She reveals her best friend died of a heroin overdose at 18 and another close friend died by suicide shortly after.
- After attending an immortality/anti-aging meeting days into the Russian invasion, she concluded death may actually be important.
- Asked who she'd be for a day, she picks Hitler or Stalin to understand evil from the inside.
Worth remembering
- The microphone they're using is the same Shure mic Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones used to record 'Thriller.'
- Per Daniel Ek, the CD-era peak had ~20,000 artists earning millions, while Spotify now lets ~1 million artists make a living.
- Forcing yourself to listen to new music keeps the brain neuroplastic; most Spotify streams are actually classic rock, not new music.
- Grimes reframes art as a 'decentralized collective' conversation with every artist who lived before you.
- Having kids 'inherently makes you want to be an optimist,' and she warns that if all our art is Blade Runner we'll end up with Blade Runner.
- Anarchist Kropotkin documented cooperation and love in nature as an evolutionary mechanism, a counterweight to survival-of-the-fittest.
- Algorithmic bubbles are creating different 'dialects' of English, causing people to fight when they actually agree.
- She points to the Bronze Age collapse as a near-modern society leveled by climate change and a single fragile bronze supply chain.
- Her top civilizational fear is supply-chain collapse, since modern populations can't survive without technology.
- Citing Lovelock's 'Novacene,' she suggests our consciousness may be the universe waking up and seeing itself for the first time.
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