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Lex Fridman · 2022-08-04

John Carmack: Doom, Quake, VR, AGI, Programming, Video Games, and Rockets | Lex Fridman Podcast #309

Legendary programmer John Carmack spends over five hours with Lex Fridman on Doom, Quake, VR, rockets, and his all-in bet on building AGI.

John Carmack: Doom, Quake, VR, AGI, Programming, Video Games, and Rockets | Lex Fridman Podcast #309
The guest

John Carmack: Co-founder and lead programmer at id Software, widely considered one of the greatest programmers ever, behind Commander Keen, Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, and Quake. Former CTO of Oculus VR and now founder of an AGI startup.

What this episode covers

Carmack traces his path from teenage assembly-language games on a borrowed PC to inventing the scrolling and 3D-rendering tricks that built id Software's empire. He digs deep into the technical innovations behind Wolfenstein 3D (ray casting, compiled scalers), Doom (BSP trees, modding), and Quake (true 3D, networking, his own scripting language), alongside lessons on programming philosophy, user value, and hard work. The conversation moves through his Oculus/Meta years and a candid critique of why big tech wastes resources, his friendship and engineering debates with Elon Musk, and bets on Mars and self-driving cars. The back half centers on his conviction that AGI is achievable within a decade, likely in tens of thousands of lines of code, and why he's now committing fully to it. It closes on martial arts, books, mortality, and the meaning of life.

Recommended on this episode

BookRecommended

Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution

Steven Levy

“a really formative book for me”
“Steven Levy's book Hackers was a really formative book for me as a teenager, I mean read it several times”— John Carmack
BookRecommended

Game Engine Black Book: Wolfenstein 3D

Fabien Sanglard

“you've recommended the book”
“you've recommended the book Game Engine Black Book Wolfenstein 3D for technical exploration of the game”— John Carmack
MediaRecommended

Demeo

Resolution Games

“really an awesome VR game”
“he wrote working on a game called Demeo which is really an awesome VR game it's like Dungeons and Dragons”— John Carmack
MediaRecommended

Beat Saber

Beat Games

“more fun than doing it just about any other way”
“if you go play an hour of Beat Saber or Supernatural or something that is legit solid exercise and it's more fun than doing it just about any other way”— John Carmack
MediaRecommended

Supernatural

Within

“more fun than doing it just about any other way”
“if you go play an hour of Beat Saber or Supernatural or something that is legit solid exercise and it's more fun than doing it just about any other way”— John Carmack
MediaRecommended

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Bethesda Game Studios

“it just takes you to another world”
“I'm a fan of role playing games the Elder Scroll series like Skyrim or even Daggerfall it just takes you to another world”— Lex Fridman

Also referenced (named, not recommended)

BookReferencedISBN verified

Snow Crash

Neal Stephenson

“the term comes from Neil Stevenson's book Snow Crash which many of us had read back in the 90s it was one of those kind of formative books”— John Carmack
BookReferenced

Computer Graphics: Principles and Practice

Foley and van Dam

“I had learned this from one of my Graphics Bible at the time a book called Foley van Dam”— John Carmack
BookReferencedISBN verified

Masters of Doom

David Kushner

“some other people just say felt that Masters of Doom portrayed played things up in a way that I shouldn't be too happy with”— John Carmack
MediaReferenced

Minecraft

Mojang

“Minecraft is an amazing case study in so many things where what's been able to be done with that is really enlightening”— John Carmack
MediaReferenced

Fortnite

Epic Games

“modern things that are on completely different order of magnitude like Minecraft and Fortnite that have 100 million plus users”— John Carmack
MediaReferenced

Roblox

Roblox Corporation

“right now Roblox is basically a game construction kit aimed at kids and that was a capability first play and it's achieving scale”— John Carmack
MediaReferenced

Call of Duty

Activision

“when Activision demonstrated that you could make Call of Duty every year and not only is it not bad people kind of love it”— John Carmack
MediaReferenced

Duke Nukem 3D

3D Realms

“Ken Silverman and his build engine which was used for Duke Nukem 3D and some of the other games for 3D Realms”— John Carmack
MediaReferenced

Wizardry

Sir-Tech

“there was one famous program called Wizardry it was like one of the great early role playing games that was written in Pascal”— John Carmack

Big reveals from this episode

  • Reveals he nearly chose cost-effective nuclear fission over AGI as his next major life project.
  • Admits he pushed John Romero out of id Software and says a different corporate structure could have avoided the tension.
  • Says Meta spends $10 billion a year on Reality Labs and it makes him feel sick to his stomach.
  • Made a $10,000 bet that there will NOT be boots on Mars by 2030, against a room of optimists.
  • Claims AGI code will likely be tens of thousands of lines, writable by one person, needing fewer than six key insights.
  • Just signed a term sheet taking investor money to go all-in on AGI after two years as a self-funded 'gentleman scientist'.
  • Bought a quarter-million-dollar DGX Station specifically so it would 'mock' him into running more experiments.
  • Sam Altman tried to recruit him to OpenAI, and Ilya Sutskever gave him a binder of papers to learn machine learning.

Worth remembering

  • Carmack drinks about eight or nine Diet Cokes a day and treats cracking one open as his signal to start working.
  • At id Software he had a pizza delivered every single day for years, and the shop never raised his six-year-old price.
  • He runs his C/C++ code in a debugger constantly, setting a breakpoint and stepping through every new function he writes.
  • He once spent a week forcing himself to use classic vi, calling it his 'Civil War reenactment phase' before happily returning to Visual Studio.
  • Carmack and Tom Hall cloned the first level of Super Mario Bros 3 on PC overnight, titled 'Dangerous Dave in Copyright Infringement'.
  • id Software first tried to license Super Mario 3 for PC from Nintendo, who looked at it in Japan but passed.
  • It was an innovation in Doom to remove 'lives'; earlier games like Wolfenstein still had three lives and extra-life powerups.
  • Building Quake's own programming language (QuakeC) taught a whole generation to program, though Carmack says it was 'nothing to write home about'.
  • The most popular VR app turned out to be Beat Saber, which nobody predicted; first-person shooters underwhelmed in VR.
  • Carmack notes that tapping to a choke in grappling is a closer brush with mortality than most people consider.