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Lex Fridman · 2022-11-29

Todd Howard: Skyrim, Elder Scrolls 6, Fallout, and Starfield | Lex Fridman Podcast #342

Legendary game director Todd Howard takes Lex Fridman deep into how Bethesda builds living open worlds, from Daggerfall to Starfield and the long-awaited Elder Scrolls VI.

Todd Howard: Skyrim, Elder Scrolls 6, Fallout, and Starfield | Lex Fridman Podcast #342
The guest

Todd Howard: Game director and executive producer at Bethesda Game Studios, widely regarded as one of the greatest video game designers of all time. He has led the Elder Scrolls and Fallout franchises, including Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3 and 4, and the new space RPG Starfield.

What this episode covers

Todd Howard walks Lex through the craft of building Bethesda's open-world RPGs: how NPC AI and a single world-wide 'people manager' create reactive, living worlds; how 'tone' grounded in reality makes fantasy and sci-fi feel believable; and the trade-offs between graphics fidelity and player agency. He traces his path from a self-taught Apple II kid making clones of Star Trek and Raiders of the Lost Ark, through a near-bankruptcy era at Bethesda after the Redguard flop, to the studio's modern hits. He details Starfield's procedurally generated planets, the full lifecycle of a game from lunchtime idea to vertical slice to release, character creation, combat, loot, and modding. The conversation widens into the search for extraterrestrial life, the Fallout TV show with Jonathan Nolan, an Indiana Jones game at MachineGames, and Howard's reflections on curiosity, resilience, and the meaning of life.

Recommended on this episode

BookRecommended

The Tetris Effect: The Game That Hypnotized the World

Dan Ackerman

“You should read it”
“Have you read the book on Tetris? No. You should read it. Particularly someone who grew up in Russia.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Red Dead Redemption

Rockstar Games

“highly recommend finishing that game”
“I think Red Dead Redemption 1 could be my favorite story. Like, highly recommend finishing that game.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Marvel Snap

Second Dinner

“my favorite game this year ... You should really play it”
“my favorite game this year is Marvel Snap, this card game from the folks who did Hearthstone. You should really play it”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Diablo Immortal

Blizzard Entertainment

“I was very, very impressed with that. Had a lot of fun”
“Diablo Immortal is, I was very, very impressed with that. Had a lot of fun.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Raiders of the Lost Ark

Steven Spielberg

“still my favorite movie of all time ... It's the best movie ever”
“And "Raiders," still my favorite movie of all time. No debate. It's the best movie ever.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Ultima VII: The Black Gate

Origin Systems

“Ultima VII is probably [the best game]”
“Ultima VII is probably ... that was a virtual fantasy world, where I had, you could break bread, you could pick all this stuff up”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Tetris

Alexey Pajitnov

“What's the best game of all time? ... Tetris”
“What's the best game of all time? ... Tetris ... it's just so elegant ... this very pure game that only works 'cause it's a video game.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild

Nintendo

“It's my favorite Zelda ... It's a magical game”
“It's my favorite Zelda ... they just did a phenomenal job. It's a magical game.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Grand Theft Auto: Vice City

Rockstar Games

“could be my favorite one ... I loved all the Grand Theft Autos”
“Then Vice City's kind of a fast follow, which could be my favorite one ... I loved all the Grand Theft Autos.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Hearthstone

Blizzard Entertainment

“Hearthstone's a game I love”
“Hearthstone's a game I love. I love all time”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Forza

Turn 10 Studios

“I love Forza”
“or racing games, Forza, put up there, I love Forza. Played them all.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Madden NFL

EA Sports

“I still play Madden to this day. I love it”
“I buy Madden every year ... I still play Madden to this day. I love it.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Diablo III

Blizzard Entertainment

“Diablo, a series I love ... which I think is great”
“Diablo, a series I love ... Diablo III, which I think is great.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Minority Report

Steven Spielberg

“that movie I love, "Minority Report"”
“that movie I love, "Minority Report" ... If you look at a lot of the things in that movie ... those are coming true.”— Todd Howard
MediaRecommended

Prince of Persia

Jordan Mechner

“Prince of Persia's one of my favorite games”
“Prince of Persia's one of my favorite games ... It's a love letter to Prince of Persia.”— Todd Howard

The guest's own work

MediaBy the guest

Fallout Shelter

Bethesda Game Studios

“Fallout, I definitely recommend that one. Fallout Shelter. Completely different game.”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Bethesda Game Studios

“Skyrim's 11 years old, still probably our most played game. And so we don't see it slowing down.”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

Starfield

Bethesda Game Studios

“We had always wanted to do something where you explore space, the explore space role playing game.”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

Fallout 3

Bethesda Game Studios

“is one of my favorite projects that I've ever, ever worked on ... that game found the audience and success that it did”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

Fallout 4

Bethesda Game Studios

“I think you should play Fallout 4. Love to hear your thoughts.”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind

Bethesda Game Studios

“the credit goes to Morrowind maybe over Skyrim ... we're gonna make Morrowind and make the biggest, best RPG we can make”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall

Bethesda Game Studios

“Daggerfall digs deep into who's your character, how you gonna develop it, what are your skills?”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

The Elder Scrolls: Arena

Bethesda Game Studios

“It's actually, it's a game I love, and it's very, very elegant, if you look at the first one”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Bethesda Game Studios

“Oblivion has some more guardrails on it. Morrowind's where you can really go.”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard

Bethesda Softworks

“Redguard was my game, and I wanted to do something a little more Ultima feeling, handcrafted world ... I love Redguard”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

Fallout 76

Bethesda Game Studios

“Fallout 76, like really bad launch, and okay, what did we do wrong? ... Now it's a success.”— Todd Howard
MediaBy the guest

The Elder Scrolls Online

ZeniMax Online Studios

“We have Elder Scrolls Online ... it's insanely, insanely popular ... They do some great storytelling quests.”— Todd Howard

Also referenced (named, not recommended)

MediaReferenced

Grand Theft Auto III

Rockstar Games

“I would put GTA III, Grand Theft Auto III up there with the landmark kind of usher in the open world”— Todd Howard
MediaReferenced

Portal

Valve

“Is there any others that pop to mind? Portal.”— Todd Howard
MediaReferenced

Destiny 2

Bungie

“Destiny, Destiny 2 is great at it.”— Todd Howard
MediaReferenced

Civilization

Sid Meier

“But for me, the Ultima, Civilization. As far as a grand strategy game.”— Todd Howard
MediaReferenced

Pac-Man

Namco

“Pac-Man I mentioned in terms of bringing games into the mainstream in a way that captured people that nothing before it had.”— Todd Howard
MediaReferenced

Super Mario Bros.

Nintendo

“Super Mario, Donkey Kong, everything Nintendo, are probably the best game makers in the world still.”— Todd Howard
MediaReferenced

Dark Souls

FromSoftware

“But I've sometimes put down games from frustration only to return again, stronger. Dark Souls. Yeah.”— Todd Howard
MediaReferenced

Westworld

Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy

“Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy who do Westworld”— Todd Howard
MediaReferenced

Chernobyl

HBO

“What they did, HBO did with Chernobyl, like the attention to detail. It's just incredible.”— Lex Fridman

Big reveals from this episode

  • Bethesda intentionally leaves a hidden developer test cell, stocked with all the game's weapons, that players inevitably find.
  • Howard was rejected for a corporate finance job at Circuit City, which pushed him to go make video games instead.
  • After the Redguard and Battlespire flops, Bethesda almost went out of business and Howard felt personally responsible.
  • Starfield gives companions more complex relationships: they can be in love with you yet temporarily angry over something you did, instead of just drifting out of the relationship.
  • On Elder Scrolls VI's release: 'I have a vague idea' and 'it would never have been my plan to wait as long as it's taken.'
  • Howard confirms Starfield is exclusive to Xbox.
  • Howard names Skyrim's competitor for greatest game of all time as Tetris; Lex picks Skyrim as his number one.
  • The Fallout TV show is led by Jonathan Nolan (Westworld, Interstellar), who is EP and directed the first episodes and said Fallout 3 was one of his favorites.

Worth remembering

  • Bethesda treats AI as one big 'people manager' that simulates everyone in the world at once, updating distant NPCs at a lower tick rate.
  • Worlds are designed like an amusement park (Disney World) rather than a true simulation, prioritizing what the player can actually see.
  • The original Arena shipped on six (maybe eight) floppy discs, and the number of discs directly affected profits before CD-ROM arrived.
  • Bethesda's Terminator: Future Shock pioneered the open-world height-map-with-instanced-objects approach they still use today.
  • Voice recording now runs throughout development for three to four years instead of only at the end.
  • Starfield wraps hand-built, offline-generated terrain tiles around planets and blends them to avoid 'fractally goop.'
  • Bethesda runs very dumb bots across servers every day to crash-test every space, plus a scripted bot that plays the first main quests on each build.
  • Enemy AI is deliberately dumbed down and they 'take turns' attacking, because making enemies as smart as possible is not fun.
  • Howard mourns the lost culture of physical game boxes and values digital ownership, wanting cover art that looks good side by side.
  • Howard calls Raiders of the Lost Ark the best movie ever made, with the greatest movie opening ever.