Jaron Lanier: Computer scientist, artist, musician and writer widely credited as a founding father of virtual reality. A prominent critic of social media business models and author of books like 'Who Owns the Future?' and 'Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now.'
What this episode covers
Lex Fridman talks with Jaron Lanier about virtual reality, consciousness, and the dangers of social media. Lanier argues that the greatest value of VR is renewed appreciation for the physical world, and that 'AI' is a misleading frame for what are really just human-made algorithms and tools. Much of the conversation centers on fixing social media through economics, proposing 'data dignity' and data unions so people are paid and respected for their contributions rather than manipulated by engagement feedback loops. They also explore cryptocurrency skepticism, the role of government and politics, physics as a learning system, mortality, and music as a form of meaning beyond words.
Recommended on this episode
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Bethesda
“i really like the elder scrolls series it's a role-playing game uh skyrim for example why do i enjoy so deeply just walking around that world”— Lex Fridman
The guest's own work
Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now
Jaron Lanier
“it was actually the title of the book was just the arguments to delete your account yeah and 10 arguments”— guest
Who Owns the Future?
Jaron Lanier
“i wrote a book about an earlier version of it called who owns the future um and the the basic idea of it”— guest
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
The Denial of Death
Ernest Becker
“the great book on the subject the denial of death by ernest becker deserves a reconsideration”— Lex Fridman
HoloLens
Microsoft
“with something like a hololens even then like one of my favorite things is to augment a forest”— guest
GPT-3
OpenAI
“our office is funding gpt3 and all these things that are that are you know at the at the edge of what's possible”— guest
Doctor Sax
Jack Kerouac
“there's a there's a passage in kerouac's book dr sachs where somebody tries to just explain the whole situation with reality”— guest
Big reveals from this episode
- Lanier claims social media persuasion largely doesn't work as advertised and is really a 'cognitive access blackmail scheme' where you must pay to be seen at all.
- He argues hardcore brain-as-computer mind-uploading believers and religious dualists are motivated nearly identically by fear of death, calling it 'medieval christianity all over again.'
- Lanier flatly states 'I don't believe in AI... there's just algorithms we make them we control them they're tools they're not creatures.'
- He describes a repeated experiment where letting YouTube auto-recommend ~17-18 hops reliably lands viewers in 'weird paranoid bizarre territory.'
- When the Bitcoin whitepaper appeared, his 'heart sank' because it recreated the gold standard, and he calls proof-of-work 'a crime against the atmosphere.'
- Lanier defines authentic freedom as 'perpetual annoyance', surviving the unavoidable friction of dealing with other people.
- He says you cannot both believe in the future and want to live forever; optimism requires making yourself small to make room for what comes next.
Worth remembering
- Lanier helped build the first surgical simulator in the 1980s with Dr. Joe Rosen at Stanford, finding the transition from simulation to real patient the most valuable part.
- An early wire recording of an opera singer behind a curtain was once judged indistinguishable from the live singer, showing how perception of media evolves.
- In the Civil War era, itinerant photographers sold generic archetype photos so people could buy an image that vaguely resembled a loved one.
- California has an emerging 'data union' law that Lanier sees as a seed for his data-dignity economic model.
- Lanier co-founded an EU advisory board that fed into the GDPR, and observes most people get stymied by the complexity of consent management.
- Lanier's mother was a young piano prodigy in Vienna who survived a concentration camp, then died in a car accident in the US.
- His childhood neighbor Clyde Tombaugh, the discoverer of Pluto, taught him to grind mirrors and make telescopes in New Mexico.
- He notes Vikings used a 'sunstone' chunk of mica to diffract light and navigate when clouds hid the sun.