The guest
David Deutsch and Naval Ravikant: David Deutsch is a visiting physics professor at Oxford's Center for Quantum Computation, a pioneer of quantum computing, and author of The Fabric of Reality and The Beginning of Infinity. Naval Ravikant, co-host here, is co-founder of AngelList and AirChat and an early investor in Twitter, Uber, and Notion.
What this episode covers
Tim Ferriss hands the wheel to Naval Ravikant for a deep conversation with physicist David Deutsch about the worldview in his books The Fabric of Reality and The Beginning of Infinity. They walk through the four interconnected strands of knowledge: Popperian epistemology, evolution, quantum theory, and computation, arguing that good explanations are stories that are hard to vary. Deutsch explains why the popular 'scientific method' is a misconception, why true creativity makes AGI fundamentally disobedient, and why current AI is the opposite of AGI. The discussion extends to the principle of optimism (anything not forbidden by the laws of physics is achievable), a redefinition of wealth as the set of transformations one can bring about, and the claim that knowledge-creating people are becoming central to the universe. They close with constructor theory, taking children seriously, and a long list of recommended reading.
Recommended on this episode
BookRecommendedISBN verified
The Beginning of Infinity
David Deutsch
“I really encourage people to read The Beginning of Infinity”
“I really encourage people to read The Beginning of Infinity, at least the first three chapters which I think are an easy read before you even get in the physics part.”— Naval Ravikant
MediaRecommended
The Theory of Knowledge Podcast (ToKCast)
Brett Hall
“I would not have been able to understand the books and get into them as easily and well if it weren't for the tireless work of Brett Hall”
“He runs a podcast called The Theory of Knowledge Podcast, Talk Cast, t o k cast. And he's got 100 episodes in there that literally goes through David's books chapter by chapter.”— Naval Ravikant
BookRecommended
Philosophy in the Real World
Brian Magee
“I found that to be a good lighter weight introduction”
“there's a recent book that I found called Philosophy in the Real World which is like a little 100-page introduction to Karl Popper by Brian Magee, and I found that to be a good lighter weight introduction.”— Naval Ravikant
BookRecommendedISBN verified
The Science of Can and Can't
Chiara Marletto
“Chiara Marletto wrote a great book, The Science of Can and Can't”
“his colleague Chiara Marletto wrote a great book, The Science of Can and Can't, that tries to explain it to the layperson.”— Naval Ravikant
BookRecommendedISBN verified
The History of England
Thomas Babington Macaulay
“I recommend him... if you read Macaulay, you understand history”
“he wrote this History of England which he died halfway through writing it... if you read Macaulay, you understand history.”— David Deutsch
The guest's own work
BookBy the guestISBN verified
The 4-Hour Body
Tim Ferriss
“I recommended it long ago in my 2010 number one New York Times best-seller, The 4-Hour Body, and I did not get paid to do so.”— Tim Ferriss
BookBy the guestISBN verified
The Fabric of Reality
David Deutsch
“He is the author of The Fabric of Reality and The Beginning of Infinity and he is an advocate of the philosophy of Karl Popper.”— Tim Ferriss
BookBy the guestISBN verified
The Beginning of Infinity
David Deutsch
“He is the author of The Fabric of Reality and The Beginning of Infinity and he is an advocate of the philosophy of Karl Popper.”— Tim Ferriss
MediaBy the guest
The 4-Hour Body
Tim Ferriss
“I recommended it long ago in my 2010 number one New York Times bestseller, The 4-Hour Body, and I did not get paid to do so.”— Tim Ferriss
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
MediaReferenced
Tim Ferriss interview with Naval Ravikant (2015)
The Tim Ferriss Show
“you can check out my wildly popular interview with him from 2015 which was nominated for podcast of the year.”— Tim Ferriss
BookReferencedISBN verified
The Open Society and Its Enemies
Karl Popper
“And Popper has a lot of books. The Open Society and Its Enemies, The Logic of Scientific Discovery, etc.”— Naval Ravikant
BookReferencedISBN verified
The Logic of Scientific Discovery
Karl Popper
“And Popper has a lot of books. The Open Society and Its Enemies, The Logic of Scientific Discovery, etc.”— Naval Ravikant
Big reveals from this episode
- Deutsch reveals quantum computing was a byproduct of his attempt to design an experiment to test multiverse theory: he imagined running an AGI on what we now call a quantum computer so it could do an experiment on itself to detect parallel universes.
- Deutsch argues AGI is definitely possible but nowhere near being built, and that AI is not just different from AGI but its opposite: AI works by amputating possibilities, while AGI must leave them open.
- He defines a person as anything capable of explanatory creativity, meaning future AGIs and extraterrestrials are people, and they will be fundamentally disobedient and impossible to safely 'align' by crippling their thinking.
- Deutsch lays out the 'hierarchy rule' (big energetic things dominate small ones) and argues it is only an accidental feature of the early universe that knowledge-creating people overturn, making humans central rather than insignificant.
- Wealth is redefined not as a number but as the set of all transformations you can bring about, making wealth unlimited like knowledge and turning resources into things created by ideas rather than finite stocks.
- Deutsch introduces constructor theory, his reformulation of physics in terms of what can and cannot be done, and predicts universal constructors will still need disobedient humans to program the obedient machines.
Worth remembering
- The working title of The Fabric of Reality was 'The Theory of Everything,' but Deutsch's publisher made him change it because another author had already used that title.
- Deutsch says Turing settled the question of whether machines can think in 1936 (universality of computation) and again in 1950, and that the paper should have been titled 'Can computer programs think?' because software thinks, not hardware.
- Deutsch's hallmark of a good explanation is that it is 'hard to vary' while still accounting for what it explains, contrasting the easily-varied Persephone myth for seasons against the axial-tilt theory.
- Turing predicted in 1950 that AGI would exist by the year 2000, and Deutsch agrees AGI will likely require very little computing power, just a new philosophical theory of what the program should do.
- The hierarchy rule was first violated about 4 billion years ago when oxygen-producing photosynthesis arose from a mutation in a single DNA molecule that went on to transform the entire surface and atmosphere of Earth, roughly 10 to the 40 times its own mass.
- Deutsch claims (referencing a TED Talk) that once humans reach a factor of 10 to the 40 in violating the hierarchy rule, we will be controlling the galaxy and astrophysics will become the history of what people do.
- Deutsch says there is currently no good quantum physics book for beginners and that he hopes to write one, and is negotiating a textbook with colleagues.
- Deutsch frames 'don't destroy the means of error correction' as the moral imperative, but notes he put it in the mouth of a fictional Socrates in a play within the book so as not to tell people what to do.
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