Teddy Atlas: Legendary and at times controversial boxing trainer and ESPN commentator; protege of Cus D'Amato who helped train a young Mike Tyson.
What this episode covers
Teddy Atlas joins Lex Fridman for a conversation that begins as a discussion of boxing but becomes a Shakespearean human story about loyalty, betrayal, fear, and greatness. Atlas recounts the formative influence of his father, a selfless doctor, and his mentor Cus D'Amato, who trained him to be a teacher rather than a fighter. He tells the full story of discovering and training the 12-year-old Mike Tyson, and the rupture that followed after Tyson behaved inappropriately toward Atlas's 11-year-old niece, leading Atlas to put a gun to Tyson's head and Cus to side with Tyson and cut Atlas out. Throughout, Atlas wrestles with forgiveness, his refusal to call Tyson 'great' despite his sensational talent, and his belief that a fight isn't a fight until there's something to overcome.
The guest's own work
Atlas: From the Streets to the Ring: A Son's Struggle to Become a Man
Teddy Atlas
“in the book you write about a testimony he gave I was hoping I could read it cuz it speaks to your character”— Lex Fridman
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
Kung Fu
Ed Spielman
“I felt like that guy Kung Fu you know like in the movie like F grasshopper when you're ready when you could take this out of my hand you can leave”— Teddy Atlas
Papillon
Franklin J. Schaffner
“If I want to freaking go down that road I'll watch papon you know what I mean and I'll get my feel from that”— Teddy Atlas
Encyclopaedia Britannica
Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc.
“he had pran pranica encyclopedia uh the whole set in in our library he said you see these yeah I see them all the knowledge of the world”— Teddy Atlas
Big reveals from this episode
- Lex frames the episode as the Shakespearean story of Teddy Atlas, Cus D'Amato, and Mike Tyson, about loyalty, betrayal, fear, and greatness.
- Atlas describes the phone call about a 190-pound, 12-year-old Mike Tyson in juvenile detention, brought to the Catskill gym by corrections officer Bobby Stewart.
- Cus prophetically tells Atlas that Tyson will be his first heavyweight champion, while Tyson is still 12 and a 'mess.'
- Atlas explains Cus took a deal and signed papers to cut him out so the future heavyweight champion wouldn't be taken away by the state.
- Atlas says he does not feel sorry for pulling the gun on Tyson, only that he regrets having had to do it.
- Atlas reveals Cus secretly sent a messenger offering him 5% of Tyson's career earnings to leave quietly, and he told Cus to shove it.
- Atlas calls Tyson a 'meteor' who became more beloved and forgiven after his career than during it.
- Atlas concludes he forgives Cus because Cus gave him more than he took away.
Worth remembering
- Atlas's father, a doctor, built two hospitals and did house calls until age 80 charging about three dollars.
- His father would drive around the holidays picking up homeless people to put them in the hospital so they wouldn't harm themselves.
- Atlas was stabbed roughly 400 stitches' worth in a street knife fight, missing his jugular by about a centimeter.
- Cus D'Amato trained two world champions: heavyweight Floyd Patterson and light heavyweight Jose Torres.
- In Tyson's tryout, 12-year-old, 190-pound Tyson sparred former pro Bobby Stewart, who was 28 and about 175 pounds.
- Atlas normally wouldn't put a fighter in the ring for four to ten months of floor training before live sparring.
- Atlas attributes Buster Douglas's upset of Tyson partly to Douglas's mother having died a few months earlier, giving him a reason to be strong.
- Atlas describes the dread of training a Ukrainian fighter to face hard-puncher Adonis Stevenson for a world title.
- Atlas notes Tyson dismantled Michael Spinks in about 90 seconds, the night he believes he saw a great fighter.
- Atlas argues Tyson was only ever in five real 'fights' (with something to overcome) and didn't overcome them.