Dr. Karolina Westlund: An animal ethologist and expert in animal behavior who teaches guardians, trainers, and veterinarians how to improve animal welfare. She approaches pet care through the lens of how species evolved in the wild.
What this episode covers
Andrew Huberman and Dr. Karolina Westlund discuss evidence-based, ethology-grounded protocols for the mental and physical health of pets. They cover how horses, dogs, cats, and birds perceive the world and what their fundamental drives require, breaking down dog breeds by where they fall in the wolf predatory sequence (sniff, stalk, chase, grab, kill). The conversation challenges popular myths about dominance, leadership, and petting, and explains concepts like the core affect space, attachment bonds, scent marking, and self-versus-other recognition. Westlund argues many common assumptions about pets are false and that understanding a species' natural behavior is the key to a good relationship. The episode closes with reflections on neutering, cultural differences in pet keeping, and what makes humans unique as animals.
The guest's own work
Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body
Andrew Huberman
“I have a new book coming out. ... It's entitled Protocols, an operating manual for the human body.”— Andrew Huberman
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
N-acetylcysteine (NAC)
generic supplement
“supplementing with knack and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification”— Andrew Huberman
Big reveals from this episode
- Westlund reframes all dog breeds by the wolf predatory sequence, sniffers, pointers, herders, chasers, grabbers, killers, rather than by wolf-vs-mastiff genetics.
- Argues the popular human idea of dog 'dominance' misapplies a sociological definition; ethologically dominance is only priority of access to resources.
- Claims humans have no role in any dominance hierarchy with dogs, behaviors we read as dominance are really learning, fear, or association.
- Debunks the idea that cats bring prey home as 'gifts', they simply carry kills to where they feel safe.
- Huberman recounts the 2007 San Francisco Zoo tiger (Tatiana) that escaped, ignored the crowd, and targeted the specific people who taunted her.
- Westlund distinguishes imprinting (fast, mostly visual) from attachment bonds, dogs form secure or insecure attachment to owners, not imprinting.
- Huberman reveals he injected his neutered bulldog with 50mg of testosterone weekly and got an enthusiastic response from vets, not criticism.
- Westlund notes 20+ years of studies show neutering, especially in males, can increase fear, reactivity, aggression, and noise sensitivity.
Worth remembering
- Wild horses forage up to 16 hours a day; captive feeding compresses this into minutes, causing problem behavior.
- Bulldogs were bred for bull-baiting; a pain-receptor mutation in the face sits near the gene that gives them their loose, jowly skin.
- Dogs wag predominantly to the left in negative emotional states and to the right in positive ones; cats show similar left/right lateralization.
- Play has tells called 'MARS', Meta signals, Activity shifts, Role Reversals, and Self-handicap, that distinguish it from real fighting.
- In Frans de Waal's capuchin study, a monkey paid in cucumber throws a tantrum after seeing another monkey paid a grape for the same task.
- Kittens handled at least an hour a day between two and eight weeks become lap cats; under 15 minutes a day produces 'aloof' cats.
- Cats head-bump to scent-mark and make everyone in the group smell the same; they use separate face glands for inner territory vs urine for the outskirts.
- Roughly 40% of a human brain's real estate is devoted to vision and another ~40% to motor behavior, dwarfing smell and touch.
- In some waterfowl, females recognize males innately while males learn via sexual imprinting what a mate should look like.
- About 40% of Americans own a dog versus roughly 15% in Norway, where neutering is banned except for medical reasons.