The guest
Tony Fadell: Engineer, designer, and entrepreneur who co-created the iPod and iPhone at Apple and founded Nest. He is the author of the book 'Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making.'
What this episode covers
Tony Fadell traces his path from programming on punch cards as a kid and lusting over the Apple II to building era-defining products. He goes deep on the engineering and design of the original iPod, the Frankenstein origins of the iPhone, and the go-to-market disruption behind Nest. Throughout, he distills lessons on product management as 'the voice of the customer,' the difference between opinion-based and data-driven decisions, and storytelling as the foundation of great products. He also reflects candidly on working with Steve Jobs, the nature of mentorship, lawyers and VCs, work-life balance, and what a 'soul' means to an atheist.
Recommended on this episode
MediaRecommended
The Dark Side of the Moon
Pink Floyd
“really blew me away and still continues to blow me away ... i love that”
“the rock opera that really blew me away and still continues to blow me away is all of dark side of the moon like that i love that”— guest
BookRecommended
Story
Robert McKee
“you should read this”
“have you ever read the book story no by robert mckee you should read this and this is what i read when it's 26”— guest
MediaRecommended
General Magic
Sarah Kerruish and Matt Maude
“wonderful documentary ... you got to see that it's amazing”
“at general magic wonderful documentary if no one's seen it you got to see that it's amazing”— guest
The guest's own work
BookBy the guest
Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making
Tony Fadell
“he's the author of the new book build an unorthodox guide to making things worth making more than almost any human ever”— Lex Fridman
ProductBy the guest
iPod
Apple
“tony fidel engineer and designer co-creator of the ipod the iphone and the nest thermostat”— Lex Fridman
ProductBy the guest
iPhone
Apple
“tony fidel engineer and designer co-creator of the ipod the iphone and the nest thermostat”— Lex Fridman
ProductBy the guest
Nest thermostat
Nest
“tony fidel engineer and designer co-creator of the ipod the iphone and the nest thermostat”— Lex Fridman
ProductBy the guest
Philips Nino
Philips
“i was doing the philips nino and velo those are window ce based mobile computing products”— guest
ProductBy the guest
Philips Velo
Philips
“i was doing the philips nino and velo those are window ce based mobile computing products”— guest
ProductBy the guest
iTunes
Apple
“ipod would have never happened without itunes you know people don't understand that was a bundle you couldn't do one without the other”— guest
ProductBy the guest
AirPods
Apple
“it took years to build all the right protocols the chips all those things to make the experience that is the i airpods today”— guest
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
MediaReferenced
Oregon Trail
MECC
“there was no graphics right oregon trail was all in text right the cards were so cumbersome”— guest
MediaReferenced
Railroad Tycoon
MicroProse
“realize that one person wrote railroad tycoon i think that's the name of the game it's this cool little builder game”— guest
MediaReferenced
Pinball Construction Set
Electronic Arts
“there were two games that really blew my mind one was pinball construction set and the other one was music construction set”— guest
MediaReferenced
Music Construction Set
Electronic Arts
“two games that really blew my mind one was pinball construction set and the other one was music construction set”— guest
ProductReferenced
Apple II
Apple
“the only thing that was really talked about in our circles was the apple ii and i was just like that's it”— guest
ProductReferenced
Mockingboard
Sweet Micro Systems
“i got things like the mockingboard which the mockingboard paired with the music instruction set you could now generate all kinds of tones”— guest
ProductReferenced
Raspberry Pi
Raspberry Pi Foundation
“if we look at things like raspberry pi and all of these other little boards right there's a whole world”— guest
ProductReferenced
AppleWorks
Apple
“you took the program that you had let's say was appleworks which was like an early microsoft office”— guest
MediaReferenced
Stairway to Heaven
Led Zeppelin
“to me stairway to heaven is a safe fault it's like it's so often considered to be one of the greatest songs of all time”— guest
ProductReferenced
Winamp
Nullsoft
“there was mp3 player apps like winamp and other things that were on the pc real player”— guest
ProductReferenced
RealPlayer
RealNetworks
“there was mp3 player apps like winamp and other things that were on the pc real player”— guest
ProductReferenced
Visio
Microsoft
“i was using a pc with vizio and some 3d tools and i was doing 3d design at the same time”— guest
ProductReferenced
BlackBerry
Research In Motion
“the blackberry was the number one productivity messaging device of its time it was called a crackberry for a reason”— guest
ProductReferenced
Apple M1 processor
Apple
“to get it right and refine it then ship it and only then after it was probably four or five years in development just like the m1 processor”— guest
ProductReferenced
Spotify
Spotify
“spotify is a platform it started as an application is now a platform”— guest
ProductReferenced
Tencent
“think of wechat think of all the super apps out there that are now wallets and delivery services and travel services”— guest
Big reveals from this episode
- Fadell reveals the trick of presenting Steve Jobs three options with the best one last because Steve would shoot the first ones down.
- The biggest doubt about the iPod wasn't whether it could be built but whether 2001 Apple, in debt and near break-even, had the guts to make it.
- Steve committed at least two quarters of ALL Apple marketing dollars to the iPod, pulling them off the Mac, the company's lifeblood.
- The original iPhone was shown at Macworld 2007 with a plastic screen; Steve reframed scratches as a design failure to push the switch to glass.
- The Apple-Motorola ROKR phone was an 'absolute horrible disaster'; Steve threw it out of his hand on stage as fast as he could.
- The iPhone was a Frankenstein fusion of three projects: an iPod-phone, a full-screen video iPod, and multi-touch Mac tablet technology.
- Fadell, an atheist, says he still believes in the soul as what you instill in others, living on through the stories they tell.
Worth remembering
- The Apple II cost about $2,500 in 1981; Fadell caddied all summer and his grandfather matched his earnings to buy it.
- Early Apple IIs shipped with full schematics in the back, an intentional 'geeks for geeks' maker choice.
- The Philips Nino was the first device to put audible books on it, created after Fadell met Audible at a conference.
- Fadell's framework: solve a pain with a 'painkiller' not a 'vitamin,' then deliver an emotional 'superpower.'
- Product management/marketing is 'the voice of the customer' and the hardest role to hire for because nobody reports to you.
- Management consulting exists to turn opinion-based decisions into data-driven ones so executives have someone to blame.
- Glass insight: a scratch from coins is the company's design fault, but a crack from a drop is the customer's fault and they complain less.
- Fadell took the lowest job on the totem pole at General Magic, living near the poverty line, just to learn from the right team.
- After General Magic failed (an iPhone '15 years too early'), Fadell was physically, mentally, and socially unhealthy and had to rebuild.
- The interview was recorded the same week the iPod was officially discontinued, prompting Fadell's reflection on legacy.
More from Lex Fridman
All 5460 recommended