John Kiriakou: Former CIA counterterrorism officer who led the 2002 raid that captured Abu Zubaydah, then blew the whistle on the agency's torture program and served 23 months in prison. Now an author, columnist, and podcaster.
What this episode covers
John Kiriakou recounts his 15-year CIA career, from briefing presidents as an Iraq analyst to recruiting al-Qaeda assets in Pakistan as an operations officer. He explains the mechanics of espionage: the spot-assess-develop-recruit cycle, why 95% of spies betray their country for money, and the agency's preference for people with sociopathic tendencies. He warns that no device is secure, that agencies buy metadata without warrants, and details CIA abuses like MK Ultra and Operation Midnight Climax. The conversation ranges across Israeli intelligence operations, Chinese long-term strategy, sleeper agents, and his belief that Jeffrey Epstein was an Israeli intelligence asset. He closes on ethics, his torture whistleblowing, and pulling himself out of depression.
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
Three Felonies a Day
Harvey Silverglate
“Which reminds me of a book written by Dr. Harvey Silverglate. He's a professor of law at Harvard and it's called Three Felonies a Day.”— John Kiriakou
Zero Dark Thirty
Kathryn Bigelow
“we end up with with Zero Dark 30 and you know, the recruit and the CIA, Argo, the CIA is always the hero in these movies”— John Kiriakou
Argo
Ben Affleck
“we end up with with Zero Dark 30 and you know, the recruit and the CIA, Argo, the CIA is always the hero in these movies”— John Kiriakou
The Recruit
Roger Donaldson
“we end up with with Zero Dark 30 and you know, the recruit and the CIA, Argo, the CIA is always the hero in these movies”— John Kiriakou
Big reveals from this episode
- Claims the CIA experimented on American citizens and spread diseases in U.S. cities.
- A George Washington University professor was secretly a CIA officer who recruited him on the spot.
- Describes posing as gay and faking a relationship to recruit a foreign official.
- Reveals his post-9/11 operational budget was effectively unlimited; gave one source $25 million.
- Says a CIA director defied the Church Committee and ordered MK Ultra files destroyed the same afternoon.
- Details how Israel recruited starving Afghan refugees to geolocate and kill Iran's top generals and nuclear scientists.
- States he is confident Jeffrey Epstein was an Israeli spy operating as an access agent.
- Says a Delta Force squad snatched Venezuela's President Maduro a week before recording.
Worth remembering
- The CIA's recruitment method is the 'asset acquisition cycle': spot, assess, develop, recruit.
- Internal CIA studies found 95% of people who agree to spy do it purely for money.
- The CIA has the highest divorce rate of any U.S. government entity, upwards of 80%.
- Cites the argument that the average American unknowingly commits three felonies a day.
- Vault 7 leaks showed the CIA can turn a smart TV's speaker into a microphone even when off.
- Sleeper agents are raised from near birth in fake American towns using dead infants' identities.
- The Israeli pager operation against Hezbollah inserted explosives into devices routed through multiple countries.
- An 'access agent' is recruited not for their own secrets but for proximity to powerful people.
- U.S. Pentagon spending now exceeds the next eight largest militaries combined.
- Fine art, real estate, and racehorses are described as the three easiest ways to launder money.