The guest
Brandon Sanderson: Bestselling epic fantasy author (Mistborn, The Stormlight Archive) who finished Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series and built Dragonsteel, a direct-to-consumer publishing company. Holds the record for the largest Kickstarter ever.
What this episode covers
Brandon Sanderson tells Tim Ferriss the origin story of becoming a writer, from a reluctant reader who cheated on a book report to discovering fantasy through a single dragon novel that changed his trajectory. He details his disciplined writing habits (two four-hour blocks, 2,000-2,500 new words a day), his teaching framework of narrative as 'promise, progress, payoff,' and his philosophy of treating the writer rather than the book as the true work of art. He explains his hard magic systems and his three (plus a zeroth) laws of magic, illustrated through Mistborn, Lord of the Rings, and Star Wars. The conversation digs into the business of publishing: writing 13 novels before selling one, near-failure of Mistborn, Amazon's market control, why he built Dragonsteel for direct sales, and the four-secret-books Kickstarter that raised roughly $41-45 million. He closes on the economics of audiobooks, ebooks, and advances, and the shift of power from New York publishers to creators and platforms.
Recommended on this episode
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Dragonsbane
Barbara Hambly
“there was a magic to that author being able to convey a life experience of someone that just entered my brain and has never left”
“I arrived on this book called Dragon Spain by Barbara Hamley and it really was the cover cover illustrator is Michael whan”— Brandon Sanderson
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Save the Cat Goes to the Movies
Blake Snyder
“it's fun yeah the first one's also excellent I mean I enjoyed it”
“a book called save the cat goes to the movies yeah that examines different genres within screenwriting so that's not the original save the cat”— Tim Ferriss
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Save the Cat
Blake Snyder
“so I do recommend save the cat ... save the cat is kind of it's a really good leaping off point”
“so I do recommend save the cat but save the cat goes in the movies I haven't read that”— Brandon Sanderson
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On Writing
Stephen King
“those will give you kind of two of the different viewpoints on storytelling and they're both very good”
“if you want the opposite of save the cat on writing by Stephen King is a leaping off point in save the cat's about structure and onw writings about the life of a writer”— Brandon Sanderson
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Sneakers
“sneakers is one of my favorite films of all time”
“I have a deep and Abiding Love Of The Heist genre you know sneakers is one of my favorite films of all time oldie but goody”— Brandon Sanderson
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The Name of the Wind
Patrick Rothfuss
“it's brilliant Name of the Wind ... that is spectacular book first novel”
“Pat rfus published his first book and it's brilliant Name of the Wind Name of the Wind yeah that is spectacular book first novel”— Brandon Sanderson
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The Blade Itself
Joe Abercrombie
“the blade itself fantastic oh so fun also one of the best voice actors I've ever heard”
“you you kind of look at Joe abomi as kind of the modern version of that so the blade itself the blade itself fantastic oh so fun”— Brandon Sanderson
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The Lions of Al-Rassan
Guy Gavriel Kay
“the Lions of arasan or taana are to highly recommended”
“guy Gabriel K is very good at them the Lions of arasan or taana are to highly recommended their 90s fantasy”— Brandon Sanderson
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Tigana
Guy Gavriel Kay
“the Lions of arasan or taana are to highly recommended”
“the Lions of arasan or taana are to highly recommended their 90s fantasy they're a little slower than modern fantasy”— Brandon Sanderson
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The Princess Bride
William Goldman
“one of my favorite movies and favorite books amazing amazing amazing everything ... wonderful wonderful book”
“we showed them The Princess Bride one of my favorite movies and favorite books amazing amazing amazing everything”— Brandon Sanderson
BookRecommendedISBN verified
Ender's Game
Orson Scott Card
“the book Enders Game great book”
“she's the editor of the book Enders Game great book really top-notch editor and then she discovered Wheel of Time”— Brandon Sanderson
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The Lies of Locke Lamora
Scott Lynch
“that is a really fun really fun series fantastic book ... I highly recommend that one too”
“Li luck MOA came out which is another one Scott Lynch yeah Scott Lynch fantastic that is a really fun really fun series”— Brandon Sanderson
The guest's own work
BookBy the guestISBN verified
Alcatraz Versus the Evil Librarians
Brandon Sanderson
“I have a middle- grade series called alcatra EV Librarians which are pure gardened”— Brandon Sanderson
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Mistborn
Brandon Sanderson
“so I'll build it from of my books mistborn right so mistborn had a series of ideas the first idea came I was reading Harry Potter”— Brandon Sanderson
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The Way of Kings
Brandon Sanderson
“the way of Kings is 400,000 words and we kind of cram stuff in there and we get to a thousand pages on that”— Brandon Sanderson
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The Stormlight Archive
Brandon Sanderson
“he's the illustrator who did the way of kings and The Stormlight Archive for me I eventually got him”— Brandon Sanderson
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Elantris
Brandon Sanderson
“that's the one I eventually ended up selling those five I'd written”— Brandon Sanderson
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The Way of Kings Prime
Brandon Sanderson
“I sold number six after I'd finished number 13 which was way of Kings Prime”— Brandon Sanderson
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Warbreaker
Brandon Sanderson
“War breaker that you mentioned was one of these just a standalone book that I wrote between the misbourne trilogy The Wheel of Time and Stormlight”— Brandon Sanderson
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Tress of the Emerald Sea
Brandon Sanderson
“it became the story truss of the emerald sea that I wrote without any plans to publish it without any contracts without any expectations”— Brandon Sanderson
BookBy the guestISBN verified
Skyward
Brandon Sanderson
“Skyward which is my actual young adult series is shelf as adult in the UK”— Brandon Sanderson
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
BookReferencedISBN verified
Harry Potter
J.K. Rowling
“what do you want to give a reluctant reader you usually want to give them a book about someone their age usually very similar to them right a reluctant reader you if it's a young man you hand him Harry Potter”— Brandon Sanderson
BookReferencedISBN verified
On Writing
Stephen King
“I read on writing by Stephen King and how to write sci-fi and fantasy by Orson scotkart and I read these books”— Brandon Sanderson
BookReferenced
How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy
Orson Scott Card
“I read on writing by Stephen King and how to write sci-fi and fantasy by Orson scotkart and I read these books”— Brandon Sanderson
BookReferencedISBN verified
Writing to Sell
Scott Meredith
“my agent always recommends writing to cell by Scott Meredith I find it a little too structure focused”— Brandon Sanderson
BookReferencedISBN verified
The Lord of the Rings
J.R.R. Tolkien
“Lord of the Rings Harry Potter Wheel of Time there's this dark lord and what happens is like some furry footed British kid throws their ring in a hole”— Brandon Sanderson
BookReferencedISBN verified
The Wheel of Time
Robert Jordan
“Lord of the Rings Harry Potter Wheel of Time there's this dark lord and what happens is like some furry footed British kid throws their ring in a hole”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
The Sting
“you know sneakers is one of my favorite films of all time oldie but goody The Sting all the way up to kind of you know the the Oceans 11”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
Ocean's Eleven
“The Sting all the way up to kind of you know the the Oceans 11 and The Italian Job both the old one and the new one”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
The Italian Job
“the the Oceans 11 and The Italian Job both the old one and the new one just the Inception you do a good heist you can get me”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
Inception
“The Italian Job both the old one and the new one just the Inception you do a good heist you can get me”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
Game of Thrones
George R.R. Martin
“Game of Thrones was huge at the time and I've been studying Game of Thrones and I'm like I want to write something like this”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
William Goldman
“written by William Goldman who's a great screenwriter he's written a lot of Classics Butch casting the suance kid was one of his”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
Whose Line Is It Anyway?
“I actually use a method a little like you know the old show Whose Line Is It Anyway sure I pull a bunch of ideas”— Brandon Sanderson
ProductReferenced
Steam Deck
Valve
“that's the go play with my magic cards time that's the play a video game pop out the steam deck time”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
The Wheel of Time (TV show)
Amazon
“It was eventually dethroned by Game of Thrones when the television show for Game of Thrones came out until the television show Wheel of Time was the was the top”— Brandon Sanderson
BookReferencedISBN verified
The Book of Swords
Fred Saberhagen
“she's the editor of the book of swords by Fred saberhagen she's the editor of the book Enders Game”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
The Colbert Report
“I did appear on coar report that's a big one well my face appeared does that count”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
The Hunger Games
Suzanne Collins
“mistbourne was really well primed to take off partially because of Hunger Games teenage girl protagonist in a kind of dark future world”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
Star Wars
“Star Wars is such a perfect example we believe that Luke can shoot the missiles down the tube when he's using the force”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
The Elder Scrolls
Bethesda
“in video games there's this great series called The Elder Scrolls and one of the first games to ever procedurally generate Dungeons”— Brandon Sanderson
MediaReferenced
His Dark Materials
Philip Pullman
“his dark materials right and Phil pman Philman and that entire world”— Tim Ferriss
BookReferenced
The Golden Compass
Philip Pullman
“I remember reading The Golden Compass and I was like I do not understand these 300 nautical terms it was very very intricate book”— Tim Ferriss
Big reveals from this episode
- Sanderson signs 50,000 to 100,000 book plates per year, and started his podcast specifically so he could sign pages while talking.
- He wrote five novels he never even submitted to publishers, treating them as 'weight training' for his mind, and wrote 13 novels total before selling number six.
- His first book sold for a grand total of $10,000 spread across three years; his schoolteacher wife supported them on roughly $22,000 a year while he broke in.
- After Amazon shut off the ability to buy his publisher's books during a contract dispute, he realized one company controlled his career and resolved to 'Amazon-proof' himself with direct-to-consumer sales.
- His leatherbound editions, which the publisher could only sell 250 copies of, sold 50,000 once he took them direct-to-consumer.
- He secretly wrote four extra novels during COVID and launched a fake 'apology/retirement' video to tease a Kickstarter, expecting $7-10 million.
- That Kickstarter for four secret books raised about $41 million (around $45 million with add-ons), more than doubling the previous record of $21 million and remaining the largest Kickstarter ever.
- After Robert Jordan died in 2007, his widow/editor Harriet chose Sanderson to finish The Wheel of Time, calling him out of the blue when he had only three books published.
- Mistborn's mass-market paperback initially tanked; relabeling it a new $4.99 'edition' with a new cover rescued the series from the publishing 'death spiral.'
Worth remembering
- Sanderson aims for 2,000-2,500 new words a day; about a third of his time goes to revision, so a Stormlight Archive book (around 400,000 words) takes roughly 18 months.
- He works two four-hour blocks instead of one eight-hour block because eight hours brain-drains him; he treats time at the gym as thinking/writing time.
- Early in his marriage he deliberately demarcated 6:30 to 10:30 PM as non-writing 'family time' after his wife said he hadn't looked at her once during a dinner.
- He recommends 'Save the Cat' (and 'Save the Cat Goes to the Movies') for structure and Stephen King's 'On Writing' for the writer's life.
- 'Tress of the Emerald Sea' became his third best-selling book of all time through a publisher, after only Mistborn and Stormlight first volumes, despite being a Kickstarter book.
- On a $15 audiobook credit, after all the splits, an author like him averages about $4; ebooks priced above $9.99 drop the royalty from 70% to 20%.
- He released Warbreaker free under Creative Commons as an experiment and found it didn't hurt sales at all.
- Sanderson's First Law: an author's ability to solve conflict with magic is proportional to how well the reader understands that magic.
- His Second Law: weaknesses, limits, and costs are more interesting than powers (e.g., Superman is defined by what he can't do).
- His Zeroth Law: 'always err on the side of what's awesome', break your own rules if something is too cool to leave out.
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