Home Tim Ferriss Episode
Tim Ferriss · 2023-08-17

Proven Tactics to Become Creative, How to Take the Path Less Traveled, and More | Justin Gary

Magic champion turned game designer Justin Gary on creativity as process, testing assumptions, fear-setting, and building games and companies.

Proven Tactics to Become Creative, How to Take the Path Less Traveled, and More | Justin Gary
The guest

Justin Gary: Former Magic: The Gathering U.S. National and World champion turned game designer; founder of Stone Blade Entertainment, creator of Ascension, SolForge, Bakugan, and Bad Beets, and host of the Think Like a Game Designer podcast.

What this episode covers

Justin Gary traces his path from competitive laser tag and high school debate to winning the Magic: The Gathering U.S. National Championship at 17 and later the team World Championship, then walking away from NYU Law to design games. He breaks down his six-step 'core design loop' for creativity, the discipline of surfacing and inverting assumptions, and why ugly, fast prototypes beat polished ones. He shares the launch of Ascension, the near-bankruptcy of the digital game SolForge, and what he learned about risk, pricing, playtesting, and choosing the right game to play. Tim Ferriss connects many of these ideas to fear-setting, testing publishing assumptions, and his own trade-show and book-feedback experiences.

Recommended on this episode

BookRecommendedISBN verified

A Whack on the Side of the Head

Roger von Oech

“is one I'd recommend”
“I read some great books on creativity, A Whack on the Side of the Head is one I'd recommend.”— Justin Gary
ProductRecommended

Workflowy

WorkFlowy

“I am a huge fan of, in particular, an app called Workflowy”
“I am a huge fan of, in particular, an app called Workflowy. And it's a totally free app, and it's basically a series of nested lists.”— Justin Gary
ProductRecommended

Dominion

Rio Grande Games

“I fell in love with that game”
“there was another deck-building game called Dominion, which was released. It was the first of its category. And I fell in love with that game.”— Justin Gary
ProductRecommended

Discord

Discord

“the nice thing about Discord is, one, it's very easy to use”
“the nice thing about Discord is, one, it's very easy to use, you can just start up a channel for free, you can have voice chat and text chat”— Justin Gary

The guest's own work

MediaBy the guest

Think Like a Game Designer

Justin Gary

“listening to at least one, maybe two interviews with Richard on your podcast, Think Like a Game Designer”— Tim Ferriss
ProductBy the guest

Ascension

Stone Blade Entertainment

“one of the games I'm most well known for is a deck-building game called Ascension. Been around for 13 years.”— Justin Gary
ProductBy the guest

World of Warcraft Miniatures Game

Upper Deck

“I had an opportunity to lead a project that was the World of Warcraft miniatures game.”— Justin Gary
BookBy the guestISBN verified

The 4-Hour Workweek

Tim Ferriss

“this is where I first read The 4-Hour Workweek, so this is actually was super impactful for me in being very efficient using 80/20 principles”— Justin Gary
ProductBy the guest

SolForge

Stone Blade Entertainment

“I made this game called SolForge with Richard Garfield, the guy that created Magic. And we did this over a decade ago, and we made it as a digital trading card game.”— Justin Gary
ProductBy the guest

SolForge Fusion

Stone Blade Entertainment

“the new version of SolForge, called SolForge Fusion, is now a physical card game that has this new technology built into it”— Justin Gary
ProductBy the guest

Bad Beets

Stone Blade Entertainment

“I had a game I launched years later called Bad Beets, B-E-E-T-S. It's a kind of play on the poker term of bad beats”— Justin Gary
ProductBy the guest

Bakugan

Spin Master

“I make a game called Bakugan, which is a toy-based game for kids”— Justin Gary
ProductBy the guest

Ascension Tactics

Stone Blade Entertainment

“We made Ascension Tactics, which is an Ascension miniatures game, which we did another expansion to that.”— Justin Gary
ProductBy the guest

The Level Up Journal

Justin Gary

“I have a thing, The Level Up Journal, which I've made, which I've got, it just has a journal that just fits in your pocket”— Justin Gary

Also referenced (named, not recommended)

ProductReferenced

Magic: The Gathering

Wizards of the Coast

“Magic is a trading card game invented by Richard Garfield.”— Justin Gary
ProductReferenced

Monopoly

Hasbro

“you can buy it, not just like a normal game like Monopoly, you'd buy it in a store, it'd be a single box here”— Justin Gary
ProductReferenced

Dungeons & Dragons

Wizards of the Coast

“older guard at that point, Dungeons & Dragons, a lot of the very first editions”— Tim Ferriss
BookReferencedISBN verified

Art & Arcana: A Visual History of Dungeons & Dragons

“I was reading this book called, I believe it's Art & Arcana. Or arcana. which is a visual history of Dungeons & Dragons”— Tim Ferriss
ProductReferenced

Yu-Gi-Oh!

Konami

“They made trading cards forever, most known for baseball cards. And they made Yu-Gi-Oh! and this Marvel game I'd been working on”— Justin Gary
ProductReferenced

Captains of Crush grippers

IronMind

“I think it was four or five of these hand grippers called the Captains of Crush, which are incredibly and increasingly difficult to close”— Tim Ferriss
BookReferencedISBN verified

The Productivity Project

Chris Bailey

“What I love is the rule of three, I think I first learned this from Chris Bailey, his book The Productivity Project”— Justin Gary
ProductReferenced

Asana

Asana

“We tried Slack. We tried a couple of other custom ones. We tried Asana. We tried Monday. We tried a bunch of them.”— Justin Gary
ProductReferenced

Monday.com

monday.com

“We tried Slack. We tried a couple of other custom ones. We tried Asana. We tried Monday. We tried a bunch of them.”— Justin Gary

Big reveals from this episode

  • Gary won the U.S. National Championship at 17 after running a tournament at his local game store to fund a plane ticket to Columbus and sleeping on a friend's floor, because his parents couldn't afford debate camp that summer.
  • He realized 'there's nothing that differentiates a creative person from a not-creative person other than process,' which led him to develop the six-step core design loop: inspiring, framing, brainstorming, prototyping, testing, iterating.
  • Once a quarter his company runs an 'assumptions challenging exercise' where everyone writes down every assumption, then asks 'what if that weren't true?', an inversion that revealed turning SolForge from digital back into a physical card game (SolForge Fusion).
  • Pitching the World of Warcraft miniatures project to Upper Deck executives, he realized 'nobody knows what they're doing', the difference between a leader and everyone else is just being willing to make assertions and own the consequences.
  • That realization, combined with Tim's fear-setting and dream-lining exercises, led him to save a year of expenses, quit, and start his own company.
  • After Ascension sold out at Gen Con, a major gaming company offered to buy the whole game out with royalties; Gary said no to keep ownership of his IP, which now has over 16 standalone expansions.
  • SolForge was crowdfunded at a $250K target, raised ~$500K, but actually cost $3 million to make, Gary overextended, borrowed against Ascension and his parents' house, and nearly went bankrupt before digging out.
  • He survived the SolForge collapse by doing a 'reverse' fear-setting exercise: accepting he had lost everything first, then negotiating debts, payment plans, layoffs, and contract work to recover.

Worth remembering

  • At the peak of the Magic Pro Tour (roughly 1997-2003), first place at a major tournament paid around $30,000, and Gary made about $80,000 a year, paying his way through college.
  • Gary teaches that games satisfy five core needs: immersion, connection, aspiration, growth, and expression, and Magic hits all of them.
  • On balance, he argues not every card must be equal; the real rule is that no single strategy should be unbeatable, using Rock-Paper-Scissors as the ideal model.
  • He credits the book 'A Whack on the Side of the Head' for demystifying creativity, including the exercise of opening a random book to a random word and journaling on how it relates to your problem.
  • His brainstorming method, drawn from Wharton research, uses three 20-minute phases: open exploring (never let your pen stop for 10 seconds), organizing, and elimination.
  • Gary's favorite brainstorming tool is the free nested-list app Workflowy, valued for being infinite and fast, he avoids small paper because a full page subconsciously tells his brain to stop.
  • Tim describes the writer's trap of comparing your ugly rough draft to other people's invisible-to-you final drafts.
  • Gary set his consulting rates by doubling his quote each time until a client showed resistance instead of laughing and instantly agreeing.
  • He coined 'TTP', time to penis, as a game design metric: any time you let people customize, someone will eventually draw a penis.
  • Game economics: a game's cost must be about one-fifth of retail; manufacturers sell to distributors at ~60% off retail, distributors to retailers at ~50% off, and designer royalties run roughly 6-12% (as low as 2-3% for mass-market).