Josh Dubin: Criminal justice reform advocate and attorney affiliated with the Perlmutter Center and Innocence Project work, known for exonerations and resentencing cases
What this episode covers
Josh Dubin returns to address the aftermath of Sheldon Johnson, a man he helped get resentenced who then allegedly committed a gruesome murder, and the guilt and public backlash that followed. He and Joe discuss prison rehabilitation, the case for psychedelic therapy for veterans and prisoners, and the history of the 1970 psychedelics act as a tool against the civil rights and anti-war movements. Dubin argues the justice system is routinely weaponized against people, citing the Trump prosecutions as a high-profile example. He then lays out the Ohio 4 case in detail, where four men were convicted of murder on the sole testimony of a discredited informant's son who later recanted, urging listeners to read the evidence and pressure prosecutor JD Tomlinson. The episode closes on truth, media manipulation, and political polarization.
Recommended on this episode
Between the World and Me
Ta-Nehisi Coates
“read Ta-Nehisi Coates's book between the world and me it's a fascinating tale it's a life altering book for me”— Josh Dubin
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
In the Belly of the Beast
Jack Henry Abbott
“I read this book it's called in the belly of the beast when I was in college and it's a series of letters that this inmate wrote to Norman Mailer it's a fascinating book”— Josh Dubin
Shark Tank
ABC
“his Alibi witness was Damon John from Shark Tank he testified at his trial at post conviction hearings”— Josh Dubin
Big reveals from this episode
- Sheldon Johnson, a man Dubin helped get resentenced and called a 'miracle' on the show, allegedly beheaded and dismembered someone about a month after appearing.
- Dubin says the recidivism rate for people who served long sentences and are resentenced or exonerated is less than 1%.
- Dubin and Derek Hamilton are holding a town hall at Sing Sing prison on December 6th to normalize mental health counseling for inmates.
- Dubin introduces the Ohio 4 case: four men convicted of a 1990s murder he argues they did not commit.
- One defendant's alibi witness was Damon John of Shark Tank, who testified at the trial before FUBU when he ran a New York car service.
- A judge threatened the recanting witness with perjury prosecution whether he told the truth or maintained his lie, and prosecutors and judge refused him immunity.
- No forensic evidence: a blade found by the body was never tested, no luminol used, and the entire case rested on one informant's recanted testimony.
- Dubin posted a 40-page submission and all exhibits publicly via a 'free the Ohio 4' Twitter account to let the public pressure the prosecutor before December 31st.
Worth remembering
- The accused allegedly tried to fool high-resolution security cameras with a wig, unaware of how camera tech advanced during his 25 years in jail.
- Florida's marijuana legalization measure got 58% but needed 60% to pass.
- Dubin and Rogan trace psychedelic prohibition to the 1970 Controlled Substances Act, framed as a tool against the civil rights and anti-war movements.
- Dubin's mentor was Jerry Lefcourt, Abbie Hoffman's lawyer and lead attorney in the Panther 21 trial, who won a full acquittal.
- Lefcourt reportedly had to use a cherry picker outside a jail to reach a window to communicate with his client before trial.
- Lorraine County offered a $2,000 reward, and a known informant and his son came forward seeking the money, shifting their story repeatedly.
- Dubin calls the Ohio 4 the most incomplete investigation he has ever seen, with the sole eyewitness recanting and being jailed.
- Dubin claims Kamala Harris, as a prosecutor, blocked access to biological evidence from crime scenes, citing fear of a flood of requests.
- Dubin testified before the Florida House Judiciary Committee that stealing a private citizen's DNA should be a felony and won a 160-vote.
- Dubin notes Trump pardoned Jack Johnson and one of his own clients, calling him the president most engaged with criminal justice reform in his lifetime.