Rick Doblin: Founder of MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies), which he started in 1986 to make MDMA-assisted therapy a legal medicine. A leading figure in the psychedelic research movement for nearly 40 years.
What this episode covers
Doblin recounts his decades-long campaign to legalize psychedelic-assisted therapy, from first trying MDMA in 1982 to suing the DEA and shepherding MDMA through FDA phase 3 trials. He details the science of why psychedelics combined with therapy work for PTSD, the neuroplasticity 'critical periods' they open, and the FDA's 2024 rejection of MDMA therapy despite strong trial results. The conversation ranges across drug-war history, the counterproductive nature of prohibition, group therapy for veterans, and work in high-trauma zones like Ukraine and Lebanon. Doblin shares the personal dream that has motivated his life's work and frames psychedelics as a tool for human interconnectedness in 'a race between consciousness and catastrophe.'
Recommended on this episode
The Glass Bead Game (Magister Ludi)
Hermann Hesse
“There's a book that I'd um recommend for people um by Herman Hess, and it's called The Glass Bead Game. Magister Ludy, the glass bead game.”— Rick Doblin
The Immortality Key
Brian Muraresku
“when you talk about Brian Mirescu and the immortality key, which by the way is being made into a documentary, phenomenal book, it's incred”— Rick Doblin
Blitzed: Drugs in the Third Reich
Norman Ohler
“Have you read Blitzed by Norman Oer? ... Uh, phenomenal book on the drug use by the Nazis.”— Joe Rogan
Realms of the Human Unconscious
Stanislav Grof
“the a pivot point in my life reading this. I said, I I really want to study psychedelics.”— Rick Doblin
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross
John Marco Allegro
“I always go back to the sacred mushroom in the cross because that was what John Marco Allegro believed was the early days of Christianity.”— Joe Rogan
2001: A Space Odyssey
Stanley Kubrick
“if if people have seen the the movie 2001 Space Odyssey, um near the end of it, there's this scene where the astronaut is in this all-white room”— Rick Doblin
Dallas
David Jacobs
“There's an incredible story because Larry Hagman who is the star of Dallas uh frequented this uh nightclub with a bunch of the people from the cast”— Joe Rogan
I Dream of Jeannie
Sidney Sheldon
“he was also in I Dream of Genie. Oh yeah. So I Dream of Genie is about this genie that comes out of this bottle.”— Rick Doblin
Vikings
Michael Hirst
“this article about it actually from Netflix about the show Vikings talks about how the Ammonita might have not actually made them berserkers”— Joe Rogan
Big reveals from this episode
- Doblin argues the DEA's 1985 emergency scheduling of MDMA was itself illegal because the power was never sub-delegated to the agency.
- A non-psychedelic LSD variant (bromo-LSD) unexpectedly worked even better than LSD/psilocybin for cluster headaches.
- FDA rejected MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD in August 2024 despite roughly two-thirds of severe patients no longer qualifying for a diagnosis after treatment.
- Phase 3 results: 88% of severe PTSD patients on MDMA were 'responders,' only 12% non-responders.
- Doblin describes a deathbed dream of a Holocaust survivor telling him his purpose is to 'bring back psychedelics', his lifelong motivator.
- Cites Nixon aide John Ehrlichman admitting the drug war was designed to disrupt the anti-war and civil rights movements.
- Doblin recounts a DMT then ketamine experience grappling with the idea that 'Hitler is part of me too.'
Worth remembering
- Doblin first tried MDMA in 1982, three years before it was made illegal in 1985.
- MAPS won its case against the DEA multiple times in appeals court, with a judge ruling MDMA should be Schedule III.
- Rhabdomyolysis from over-exercise has ~26,000 reported cases annually with 5-20% mortality, used to argue exercise is riskier than ecstasy.
- British drug adviser David Nutt was fired for showing horseback riding is more dangerous than ecstasy.
- Congress granted $10 million to the Department of Defense for MDMA-assisted therapy research in active-duty soldiers.
- The Eleusinian Mysteries ran roughly 2,000 years before being wiped out by the Catholic Church in 396 AD.
- Nazi soldiers were given methamphetamine to push through Poland in three days with no sleep ('Blitzed').
- Carl Sagan was a secret heavy marijuana user who wrote about it under a pseudonym to protect his security clearance.