John Kiriakou: Former CIA counterterrorism officer who led the operation that captured al-Qaeda's Abu Zubaydah, then publicly exposed the CIA's torture program in 2007. He became the only person imprisoned in connection with that program.
What this episode covers
Kiriakou recounts his nearly 13-year CIA career, his refusal to be trained in 'enhanced interrogation techniques,' and how a 2007 ABC News interview confirming the CIA tortured prisoners triggered an espionage prosecution. He details how rapport-based FBI interrogation of Abu Zubaydah produced real intelligence while CIA torture shut him down, and blames John Brennan for a personal vendetta that landed him 23 months in prison. The conversation widens into the 'deep state,' FBI entrapment cases, January 6th informants, MK Ultra, Russiagate, AI disinformation, and Israeli/AIPAC influence on US politics. Throughout, Kiriakou frames himself as a patriot betrayed by a politicized intelligence apparatus while still defending the need for a clean CIA.
The guest's own work
The Reluctant Spy: My Secret Life in the CIA's War on Terror
John Kiriakou
“I had already written my first book, made number number five on the New York Times bestsellers list.”— John Kiriakou
Doing Time Like a Spy: How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison
John Kiriakou
“My second book, I wrote Longhand from prison. I ended up winning two literary awards for that book.”— John Kiriakou
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
Three Felonies a Day
Harvey Silverglate
“There's a book by Harvey Silverglate who's a professor of law at Harvard University. The book is called Three Felonies a Day.”— John Kiriakou
Syria: Fragile Mosaic of Power
Martha Kessler
“She had written this book, I still remember the title, called Syria, Fragile Mosaic of Power. And when you got hired, you got her book.”— John Kiriakou
Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties
Tom O'Neill
“They were running the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic. Yeah. Until right after a month after Chaos by Tom O'Neill came out.”— Joe Rogan
Big reveals from this episode
- Kiriakou says he was the only one of 14 officers who refused enhanced-interrogation training, and was passed over for promotion for a 'shocking lack of commitment to counterterrorism.'
- Claims at least two prisoners died of hypothermia from the CIA's 'cold cell' technique and were buried in holes dug next to the interrogation building.
- Argues torture was ineffective: FBI agent Ali Soufan got actionable intelligence from Abu Zubaydah through rapport, which stopped once the CIA took over and tortured him.
- Says John Brennan ordered the attorney general to 'charge him anyway and make him defend himself' even after DOJ concluded he hadn't committed espionage.
- Brennan was reportedly so angry at the short sentence he had Kiriakou sent to an actual low-medium prison instead of the agreed minimum-security camp, and told officials to 'make it as difficult as possible.'
- Describes guards trying to set him up for new charges, including telling an Iraqi inmate to kill him, and a Taliban spokesman being transferred into his prison for four days.
- Says ChatGPT invented a false education history for him and fabricated 14 fake scholarly article links for his university course, while Perplexity got his bio correct.
- Claims the Obama-era NDAA legalized government propaganda aimed at the American people, originating from a dispute over a Cuba-directed radio station.
Worth remembering
- The US spent more on security in Athens than anywhere in the world, including Beirut, due to terror groups like Revolutionary Organization 17 November.
- Only about 20% of MK Ultra documents survive because the CIA director ordered them destroyed after the Church Committee said not to.
- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's 1996 'Bojinka' plot to fly up to 14 jets into US buildings was foiled when a cleaning lady found the plans and called police.
- The CIA paid contract psychologists James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen about $108 million to design and run the torture program.
- Kiriakou notes Sharon Scranage, who got CIA officers killed in Ghana, got 9 months, while he was offered 45 years for whistleblowing.
- Under Obama, eight people were charged with espionage for speaking to the media versus only three in all of 1917-2009.
- At the Dasht-i-Leili massacre, around 2,000 Taliban prisoners suffocated in shipping containers; Kiriakou says only 14 survived.
- Netanyahu, Israel's longest-serving PM, has never won more than 27% of the vote in any election.
- Kiriakou states the US has roughly 190 military bases in 144 countries while China invests in trains, schools and infrastructure.
- Kiriakou says the CIA stopped letting Israeli Mossad/Shin Bet officers into headquarters because their gifts were packed with listening devices.