The guest
David Grusch: Former Air Force intelligence officer and senior NGA civilian (GS-15) who served on the UAP Task Force; whistleblower alleging a decades-long government UFO crash-retrieval and reverse-engineering program.
What this episode covers
David Grusch recounts how, while serving on the Pentagon's UAP Task Force, very senior intelligence officials told him the US has been recovering and reverse-engineering crashed non-human craft for roughly 90 years. He describes interviewing about 40 people up to multi-star generals, reading classified intelligence, and meeting privately with Senator Harry Reid, who confirmed the existence of UFO material. Grusch details the secrecy and compartmentation that he says cripples the program, the reprisals he suffered after filing his whistleblower complaint, and his push for the Schumer Amendment (UAP Disclosure Act of 2023). The second half drifts into a long philosophical conversation with Rogan about artificial intelligence, consciousness, higher dimensions, and humanity's place in the cosmos.
Recommended on this episode
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Proof of Heaven
Eben Alexander
“it's a really interesting book; really fascinating book”
“book Proof of Heaven by Dr eban Alexander MD I remember reading when I was in Afghanistan and I was like this is a crazy experience”— David Grusch
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Interstellar
Christopher Nolan
“great movie”
“remember the ending of the movie Interstellar right where where he's pushing the books he's like in a tesseract you know which is like a four to 5D structure”— David Grusch
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
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Skinwalkers at the Pentagon
James Lacatski, Colm Kelleher, George Knapp
“even Jim laty who ran the program who retired Dia officer PhD in engineering even made this disclosure in his book skinwalkers at the Pentagon uh page 152 to 153”— David Grusch
BookReferencedISBN verified
Passport to Magonia
Jacques Vallee
“this is like jacqu Val's book passport to mag Magnolia Magnolia I can never pronounce it right 19 1969 where he talks about the phenomenon seems to like masquerade itself”— David Grusch
BookReferencedISBN verified
Cosmos
Carl Sagan
“my my aunt gave me Cosmos by Carl Sean when I was in Middle School but that book tripped me out and I was like I want to study science”— David Grusch
BookReferencedISBN verified
A Brief History of Time
Stephen Hawking
“I read it was Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking and I read those two books when I was like an eth grade and I was like this is trippy”— David Grusch
MediaReferenced
The Matrix
The Wachowskis
“the only kind of old cars I like are like the black Lincoln Lincoln Continental suicide doors from The Matrix I remember seeing that when I was like teen”— David Grusch
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The Men Who Stare at Goats
“that seems to men who's uh staring at Goats right the George Clooney movies the famous movie based on the Stargate program seems to be legit”— David Grusch
MediaReferenced
Ex Machina
“I mean how many films have been made about this you know exmachina and all all these different films that that's right that's what we're going to do”— David Grusch
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Star Trek: First Contact
“that was a real subject of conversation even it sounds like something out of like Star Trek first Contact but it doesn't if you have vehicles”— David Grusch
ProductReferenced
Monster Energy
Monster
“if he calls me I'm like you got to call me in the morning after my 24 ounce Monster Energy drink or or I can't even keep up man”— David Grusch
ProductReferenced
Ford Bronco
Ford
“I'm a car guy so like my feed is like oh do you ever think about this mod for your Ford Bronco oh those lights look nice”— David Grusch
ProductReferenced
1970 Chevrolet Chevelle
Chevrolet
“it's just going around in a 1970 chevel just driving it it just it it's hard to describe for someone who has never experienced it”— Joe Rogan
ProductReferenced
Lincoln Continental
Lincoln
“the only kind of old cars I like are like the black Lincoln Continental suicide doors from The Matrix that car is badass”— David Grusch
ProductReferenced
iPhone 15
Apple
“hey you know what iPhone 15 is pretty dope we don't need to make new iPhones let's just keep fixing those and just like exist the way we are”— Joe Rogan
ProductReferenced
ChatGPT
OpenAI
“what open AI is doing what chat GPT 4 versus chat GPT 5 which is going to be insanely Superior well what is chat GPT 15 going to do”— Joe Rogan
Big reveals from this episode
- Grusch publicly cites a 1933 UAP crash retrieval in Magenta, Italy, back-channeled by Pope Pius XII and the Vatican through the OSS to FDR.
- He flew to Las Vegas in 2021 and met Senator Harry Reid, who said he knew the US had UFO material but was denied access for decades.
- Reid's New Yorker disclosure named Lockheed Martin as holding recovered material; ~$22M of AAWSAP money went to Bigelow Aerospace facilities.
- The people he interviewed and the intel reports he read indicated the recovered material is of extraterrestrial or non-human intelligence origin.
- He describes reprisals: clearance investigations, mental-health smears, a boss walked out, and a disturbing personal intimidation of him and his wife.
- He went public partly to spike the football and push the Schumer Amendment before Congress could let it quietly stall.
- He names Reps. Mike Turner and Mike Rogers as blocking the UAP disclosure legislation in the House.
- He confirms reports that the US holds biological remains of varying kinds, brought program insiders to the Hill, and was in the room for briefings.
Worth remembering
- A 30-year Navy officer's car paint turned milky white after a 300-foot glowing triangle hovered over his car on a civilian highway.
- Grusch explains the OSS (precursor to the CIA, founded 1947) grew out of informal Vatican, mob, and old-money intelligence networks.
- Jim Lacatski disclosed in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon (pages 152-153) that a recovered craft's hull was forcibly breached.
- A hard-to-find YouTube clip shows Senator Barry Goldwater recounting Gen. Curtis LeMay angrily refusing him access to UFO material.
- Former CIA director Mike Pompeo offhandedly said in a John Stossel interview that he had 'seen the UFO file.'
- Grusch says he read stolen foreign-adversary intelligence that itself discussed the US reverse-engineering program.
- He cites Gary Nolan's MRI research showing an overactive caudate-putamen in people with apparent remote-viewing abilities.
- He co-founded the Sol Foundation with biologist Dr. Gary Nolan and anthropologist Dr. Peter Skafish to advise on disclosure policy.
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