The guest
Josh Dubin & Sheldon Johnson: Josh Dubin is a civil-rights/innocence attorney and executive director of the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice at Cardozo Law; Sheldon Johnson is his client, released after 25+ years, now a client advocate at Queens Defenders.
What this episode covers
Unlike Dubin's usual wrongful-conviction guests, Sheldon Johnson admits guilt: he was sentenced to 50 years (two consecutive 25-year terms) for robberies in which a victim received two stitches. Johnson recounts growing up as a CODA in crack-era Harlem, being institutionalized at age 10, joining gangs, and turning his life around in prison through education, earning Cornell and Mercy College degrees. Dubin and Johnson dissect the broken criminal justice system, private prisons, prison slave labor, junk forensic science, and the disparate sentencing of people of color. They detail the reform and reentry work they now do together, urging listeners to get involved at the grassroots level.
Recommended on this episode
BookRecommendedISBN verified
Thinking, Fast and Slow
Daniel Kahneman
“I highly recommend it; phenomenal”
“I've been reading this book called Thinking Fast and Slow have you heard it's a phenomenal but I highly recommend it it's about how your brain works”— Joe Rogan
BookRecommendedISBN verified
In the Belly of the Beast
Jack Henry Abbott
“a great book”
“there's a great book um called in the belly of the Beast about a guy that went to prison um and he describes what it did to him psychologically”— Josh Dubin
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
BookReferencedISBN verified
Man's Search for Meaning
Viktor Frankl
“I read Victor frankl's man search for meaning and one of the things that struck me as being so powerful he says if you have a why then you have a reason to live”— Sheldon Johnson
MediaReferenced
New Jack City
“this was like real stuff you see New Jack City New Jack City was for real back then people who grew up after that do not understand precrack and post crack”— Sheldon Johnson
MediaReferenced
Scarface
“like Scarface the movie right you know you have this oh I don't work I don't break my balls and my word for nobody”— Sheldon Johnson
MediaReferenced
The Shawshank Redemption
“it looks like feels like is like what you saw in the Shaw Shank Redemption it's worse than Attica”— Sheldon Johnson
BookReferencedISBN verified
Rita Hayworth and Shawshank Redemption
Stephen King
“Rita Hayworth and the Sha Shank Redemption was a short story that he wrote that ended up getting made”— Joe Rogan
MediaReferenced
Scared Straight
“you remember uh Scared Straight yeah all right um I think the effectiveness of scared straight was because of the messenger”— Josh Dubin
ProductReferenced
JPay
“they gave me $40 um and a bus ticket and I had a little uh I had a little JPay uh a debit card because I had a couple of dollars in my account”— Sheldon Johnson
ProductReferenced
Microsoft Excel
Microsoft
“they don't know how to navigate the basics of Technology uh Microsoft Excel I was fortunate I was in the computer program while I was incarcerated”— Sheldon Johnson
Big reveals from this episode
- Sheldon received a 50-year sentence (later it was 25 years served) for robberies where a victim got just two stitches, far exceeding typical murder sentences.
- He was offered 23 years before trial, offered to take 15, the judge refused his plea, and after trial he got 50 years from a Black judge.
- At age 10 he sprayed a teacher who hit students' salted palms with a ruler, was handcuffed, sedated, and sent through psychiatric and juvenile facilities.
- Johnson says he was molested by a counselor in a juvenile facility and 'learned how to become a criminal' there rather than getting help.
- Reading Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning in solitary confinement sparked his decision to change his life.
- He earned his degree through Hudson Link and is now having his master's paid for by formerly incarcerated-run programs.
- Released with only $40 and a bus ticket, he was initially told he didn't qualify for emergency services after 25 years inside.
Worth remembering
- CIA-linked crack distribution funding Nicaraguan Contras and the 1-to-5 crack/powder cocaine sentencing disparity are discussed as devastating Black communities.
- Prison labor company Corcraft is a Fortune 500 operation; Johnson was paid 13-19 cents an hour operating machines.
- Prison-produced goods enter supply chains of Frosted Flakes, Coca-Cola, Gold Medal flour, sold at Kroger, Target, Aldi, and Whole Foods.
- Up to 47% of incarcerated people have dyslexia or a reading disability, and no Department of Corrections screens for it.
- A University of Texas study estimated 80% of prisoners struggled with literacy and half were likely dyslexic.
- A 2009 National Academy of Sciences report found forensic disciplines like bite marks and blood spatter lacked scientific credibility, yet bite-mark evidence is still admissible in all 50 states.
- Education in prison cuts recidivism dramatically; people earning degrees are 91-92% less likely to return.
- Roughly 2 million people are incarcerated in the US, more than the population of Austin.
- Treatment-not-jails diversion programs reportedly save $221 for every dollar spent.
- Mike Capra, the former superintendent of Sing Sing, was so inspired he retired and now works advocating for incarcerated individuals.
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