Michael Shellenberger: Investigative journalist and author known for reporting on California homelessness, energy, and the censorship-industrial complex. Wrote 'San Fransicko' and broke parts of the Twitter Files.
What this episode covers
Joe Rogan and Michael Shellenberger open on the U.S. strike on Iran and Venezuela, arguing that the post-1945 rules-based world order is over and Trump is acting independently of advisers. They pivot to immigration, ICE raids, and the killing of Alex Prey in Minneapolis, then into a long indictment of California governance, San Francisco's homelessness 'industrial complex,' and the LA fires. The back half turns spiritual: UFOs/UAPs and Jacques Vallee's 'control system' theory, crop circles, the Book of Enoch and Dead Sea Scrolls, and Shellenberger's Christian faith. It closes with an extended, contentious debate over the Epstein files in which Rogan presses hard on the contract-killer cellmate and Shellenberger shifts from 'it was a homicide' to 'we don't know.'
The guest's own work
San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities
Michael Shellenberger
“Hence the title of your book, San Francisco Sicko, which is a great title. I mean, it's a sick place”— Joe Rogan
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
One Nation Under Blackmail
Whitney Webb
“that's the premise of Whidley Webb's two volume book One Nation under blackmail. Um but when you look at it like we don't see that.”— Michael Shellenberger
Mirage Men
Mark Pilkington
“It's this uh amazing story told by this by this book Mirage Men, also a documentary.”— Joe Rogan
The Varieties of Religious Experience
William James
“William James is this famous Harvard psychologist wrote a book about the varieties of the religious experience in 1902”— Michael Shellenberger
The Book of Enoch
Unknown (ancient apocryphal text)
“I'm sure you're aware of like the book of Enoch. The Book of Enoch, which was one of the original biblical texts.”— Joe Rogan
The Age of Disclosure
Dan Farah
“Oh, you saw the age of disclosure, right? Yes, of course. Okay. So I think they make a really good point in age of disclosure”— Joe Rogan
Sig Sauer P365
Sig Sauer
“It's a Sig P365. You could drop that gun. It's not going to go off. It's not known for accidental discharge”— Joe Rogan
Big reveals from this episode
- Shellenberger argues Trump is fully his own man, citing that Trump denied Elon Musk the EV battery subsidy despite a $250M campaign contribution.
- Claims San Francisco spent roughly $100K-$120K per homeless person per year and that the system is incentivized to perpetuate, not end, homelessness.
- Says the LA fires under Mayor Karen Bass were 'totally preventable' and that officials tried to rewrite the report.
- Shellenberger says he is skeptical of a secret UFO reverse-engineering program because such a cover-up would require too many people for too long.
- Rogan presses Shellenberger on whether he is actually Christian; Shellenberger admits he goes to church but says 'I don't know.'
- Shellenberger reveals he has moved from believing Epstein was murdered to 'I don't know' after reconsidering the evidence.
- Rogan reveals Epstein's earlier cellmate was a contract-killer cop and that Epstein claimed that cellmate tried to kill him 18 days before his death.
Worth remembering
- Per pollster David Shore, if all eligible voters had voted in 2024, Trump would have won by ~3 points instead of 1.5.
- New ICE agents reportedly get only seven weeks of training and a $50,000 signing bonus paid out over four years.
- The Sig Sauer P320 is notorious for accidental discharges, with lawsuits and videos of it firing in holsters; the P365 is by contrast considered drop-safe.
- California reportedly spent $24 billion on homelessness with vetoed audits and no accountability while homelessness rose.
- Skid Row in Los Angeles is described as spanning roughly 50 city blocks.
- Commander David Fravor's 'Tic Tac' object reportedly dropped from 50,000 feet to sea level in under a second with no heat signature.
- The Dead Sea Scrolls copy of the Book of Isaiah predates the previously oldest known version by over a thousand years and is nearly verbatim.
- Shellenberger says Epstein made money as a high-level fixer, e.g. a Rothschild DOJ deal yielding ~$25M for Epstein and $10M for attorney Kathryn Ruemmler.
- The Air Force counterintelligence campaign (Richard Doty) that drove Paul Bennewitz insane near Kirtland AFB is documented in the book/film 'Mirage Men.'