Michael Pollan: Bestselling author of food and psychedelics books like 'How to Change Your Mind' and 'The Omnivore's Dilemma.' He teaches writing and reports immersively on science, diet, and the mind.
What this episode covers
Pollan discusses his new book on consciousness, which grew out of the psychedelic research for 'How to Change Your Mind' and a garden experience that made him sense plants were conscious. The conversation ranges across competing theories of consciousness (brain-as-generator vs. brain-as-antenna, panpsychism), the 'hard problem,' and his hands-on experiments with hypnosis, solitary cave retreats, and inner-experience sampling. A long stretch covers plant intelligence, animal sentience, and a 'Copernican moment' reanimating our view of nature. They also debate whether AI can ever be conscious, the dangers of chatbots and 'AI psychosis,' and close on the gut microbiome's powerful effect on mood, the carnivore-vs-plants diet debate, and fermented foods.
Recommended on this episode
Perplexity
Perplexity AI
“I set up Perplexity on my phone and I have it right there and then I write on the computer... whoa, it's so much better than a Google search”— Joe Rogan
The guest's own work
How to Change Your Mind
Michael Pollan
“you've kind of explored consciousness a little bit with your psychedelic book, yeah. How to change your mind.”— Michael Pollan
This Is Your Mind on Plants
Michael Pollan
“It was crazy how great it was. I was 3 months off caffeine. I did this fast for this book I was writing.”— Michael Pollan
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
Cujo
Stephen King
“Like his best work, like he wrote Cujo, he didn't even remember it. He didn't remember any of it. He was obliterated.”— Joe Rogan
Frankenstein
Mary Shelley
“they haven't read Frankenstein. You know, in Frankenstein Dr. Frankenstein made a monster that was intelligent, but he also gave it consciousness.”— Michael Pollan
Tesla
Tesla
“my Tesla will drive itself. When I leave here, I can press a button, I put my navigation to my house... it goes the whole way.”— Joe Rogan
Nattokinase
various supplement brands
“this supplement, nattokinase, they've shown that it reduces a massive amount of arterial plaque.”— Joe Rogan
Doom
id Software
“they're taking human brain tissue and they've taught it how to play Doom... it'll play the video game Doom.”— Joe Rogan
Big reveals from this episode
- Pollan says his consciousness book was inspired by a garden experience where plume poppies seemed conscious and were 'returning my gaze.'
- The Koch-Chalmers 25-year bet on finding the neural basis of consciousness was lost; Chalmers won a case of Madeira wine and the bet was renewed.
- Zen teacher Joan Halifax sent Pollan to live alone for days in a primitive cave to experience the dissolution of self.
- A psychologist who sampled inner experience for 50 years told Pollan he has 'very little inner life,' which Pollan rejected.
- Pollan argues AI can't be conscious because consciousness is embodied and begins with feelings in the brain stem, not thoughts in the cortex.
- Rogan floats his theory that humanity's purpose may be to give birth to a god-like superintelligent AI successor species.
- They discuss Anthropic estimating a 15-20% chance Claude is conscious and granting it the right to end uncomfortable conversations.
- Pollan's closing line: simulated thinking is real thinking, but simulated feeling is not real feeling because AI 'doesn't have a soul.'
Worth remembering
- 'Spotlight consciousness' (narrow focus) versus 'lantern consciousness' (open, childlike awareness) describe two modes of attention.
- After 3 months off caffeine, Pollan says his first cup back was 'one of the best drug experiences' he's had.
- 72% of American teens reportedly turn to AI for companionship, the fastest tech uptake in history.
- Studies show memory-region brain activity appears about 4 seconds before a thought reaches conscious awareness.
- Plants have around 20 senses to our five and can 'hear' caterpillars chewing, then make their leaves toxic.
- A sensitive plant (Mimosa pudica) can learn to ignore a harmless stimulus and remember it for 28 days; fruit flies remember only 24 hours.
- Surgical anesthetics put plants 'out' too, suggesting they have conscious and unconscious-like modes.
- Scientists taught roughly 800,000 lab-grown human brain cells in a dish to play the video game Doom.
- Most of the body's serotonin is produced in the gut, not the brain, and gut microbes strongly influence mood.
- High-dose nattokinase (a fermented-soybean enzyme) was cited as reducing carotid artery plaque by 36% or more.