Mo Gawdat: Former chief business officer at Google X and bestselling author of Scary Smart, now one of the most urgent voices on AI. He builds AI startups and writes/speaks about happiness, AI safety, and the future of humanity.
What this episode covers
In his return to the show two years after their first AI conversation, Mo Gawdat argues that humanity is heading into a short-term dystopia starting around 2027, driven not by AI itself but by human greed, capitalism's labor-arbitrage mindset, and power-hungry leaders. He breaks down his FACE RIPS framework (freedom, accountability, connection, equality, reality, innovation, power) and predicts mass job loss, universal basic income, trillionaires, self-evolving AI, and an intelligence explosion. Despite the bleak forecast, he insists the same technology could deliver a utopia of abundance, free healthcare, and human connection if society shifts its mindset and pressures governments to regulate the use of AI rather than its design. The conversation widens into consciousness, simulation theory, religion, and what humans truly want, landing on the simple idea of treating others as you wish to be treated.
The guest's own work
Scary Smart
Mo Gawdat
“we sat here and discussed AI. We discussed your book, Scary, Smart, and everything that was happening in the world”— Steven Bartlett
Alive
Mo Gawdat
“you've started writing a new book called Alive, which is I guess a bit of a follow on or an evolution of your thoughts as it relates to scary smart”— Steven Bartlett
Also referenced (named, not recommended)
1984
George Orwell
“You you remember 1984 and the Orwellian approach of like you know freedom is slavery and war is peace”— Mo Gawdat
Elysium
Neill Blomkamp
“Did you see the movie Elysium? Elissium is a society where the elites are living on the moon”— Mo Gawdat
The Coming Wave
Mustafa Suleyman
“Mustafa Sulleman in you hosted him here. He was in the coming wave. And he speaks about pessimism aversion”— Mo Gawdat
The Artilect War
Hugo de Garis
“Hugo Dearis... a very renowned eccentric computer scientist who wrote a book called the Arctic War”— Mo Gawdat
Halo
Bungie
“you know how serious I am about I play Halo. I'm one, you know, two of every million players can beat me”— Mo Gawdat
Big reveals from this episode
- Gawdat says he's changed his mind: he no longer believes we can change course, and a short-term dystopia is now unavoidable.
- Pins the dystopia at exactly 12 to 15 years, with the slope beginning in 2027.
- Flatly calls the idea that AI will create enough new jobs 'absolute crap.'
- Predicts AGI by 2026 at the latest and warns self-evolving AI is the real, under-discussed danger.
- Notes Elon Musk tweeted that 'AI existential dread is overwhelming' yet declared 'game on' the same day.
- Says Geoffrey Hinton told him, dead in the eye, that he should train to be a plumber.
- Argues the only path to a better world is replacing evil leaders at the top with AI.
- Floats living entire lifetimes asleep in VR headsets on UBI as the 'most humane' future, and says he's 98% sure we already live in a simulation.
Worth remembering
- The world spent an estimated $2.71 trillion on war in 2024.
- DeepSeek matched leading AI models at roughly 1/30th the cost and released it open source as edge AI.
- ChatGPT holds ~79-80% of AI chatbot referral market share; Perplexity ~11%, Copilot ~5%, Gemini ~2%, Claude ~1%, DeepSeek ~1%.
- Google's Alpha Evolve uses four AI agents to improve its own code, yielding an estimated 6-10% infrastructure gain worth billions.
- 62% of US GDP is consumption rather than production.
- Extreme poverty worldwide could be ended for 10-12% of the global military budget, and world hunger for under 4%.
- Gawdat estimates AI gives him a borrowed 50-80 IQ points, noting IQ gains are exponential.
- Sam Altman's June blog 'The Gentle Singularity' claims humanity is 'past the event horizon' of building digital superintelligence.
- Gawdat's 'Meet Becky' exercise: let your brain run loose, acknowledge every thought, never repeat one, until it falls silent.
- He now reads/invests four hours a day to keep up with how fast the world is moving.