Esther Perel: World-renowned psychotherapist and relationship expert with 40 years of practice, author of Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs, and creator of the Where Should We Begin card games and podcast.
What this episode covers
Esther Perel and Steven Bartlett explore why people are having less and increasingly disconnected sex despite more dating options. Perel introduces 'social atrophy' (the loss of social skills from underuse) and 'ambiguous loss' (being physically present but emotionally absent) as the root causes of declining intimacy. They work through real anonymous questions from Steven's friends about infidelity, fading attraction, and monogamy, with Perel reframing desire, honesty, and confidence. The conversation widens into masculinity, the over-emphasis on self-care, trauma and the 'empathic witness,' identity, and how the same relational pillars (trust, belonging, recognition, resilience) drive both romantic and workplace relationships.
The guest's own work
Mating in Captivity
Esther Perel
“Yeah, I wrote about that in Mating in Captivity that came out in 2006. That's 20 years ago.”— Esther Perel
The State of Affairs
Esther Perel
“to this person read state of affairs because I spent many years writing this book about infidelity”— Esther Perel
Big reveals from this episode
- Cites a man who swiped roughly 2 million times on Tinder over nearly six years to land a single date.
- Says most men coming to sex therapy today for erectile dysfunction are young men in their 20s, due to porn and masturbation, not older men with prostate issues.
- Contrarian claim: women get bored with monogamy sooner than men; they need sex worth wanting, not just more sex.
- Coaches Steven's friend 'John' through a full letter to rekindle a long-dead intimacy, comparing desire to the moon's eclipses.
- 'The sex isn't getting less interesting, their life with each other is less interesting', sex is the consequence of seven other disconnects.
- Argues the culture of self-care and self-love has 'gone overboard,' feeds consumerism, and distracts from relationships that actually drive well-being.
- Reframes trauma as an event experienced without an 'empathic witness,' not the event itself.
Worth remembering
- One in three US men under 30 reported no sex in the past year, triple the 2008 rate.
- In Japan over 40% of young adults are virgins, many reporting no interest in sex.
- 'Ambiguous loss,' a term from psychologist Pauline Boss, describes a partner who is physically present but psychologically gone, like dementia.
- Perel urges carving out 'clean' present time, saying its oxytocin payoff rivals any supplement you swallow.
- Her guiding line: the quality of your relationships will determine the quality of your life.
- Confidence (via Terry Real) is seeing yourself as a flawed person and still holding yourself in high regard.
- People who overcome adversity usually had one person, often not a family member, who believed in them.
- 'Anybody who can make people laugh or sing together is doing holy work.'
- Drawing on Howard Markman, couples fight over three things: power/control, trust/closeness, and respect/recognition.
- Perel partnered with Culture Amp, citing 1.5 billion employee-experience survey points to back her workplace work.